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I always adopt a practical attitude towards agile & scrum. I am more concerned with customer collaboration, small/continuous release, incremental development than following scrum rules strictly.

I also find that some level of a self-managing/self-organizing team will always emerge if doing agile process (whatever "agile" means here). By self-organizing I mean team members will decide who does what, how to collaborate by themselves.

How to manage the team effectively on such self-managing team? Does the developer management's job/responsibility shift in some way for the self-organizing team compared to non-self-organizing team? I don't think this is a vague or pointless question, e.g. even though scrum is silent on manager's role most of time, scrum.org has an article like "How to Lead Self-Managing Teams?".

I am sure whether being on a self-organizing team or not, the developer manager's job will always include removing impediments, mentoring/coaching team members. Just like The Role of Leaders on a Self-Organizing Team said "There is more to leading a self-organizing team than buying pizza and getting out of the way."

I am hoping to see answers from someone who experiences this challenge. I searched the SE website and I can only find this Q&A Does a mature agile team requires any management? that has something in common with my question. But still they are quite different questions.

I realize I may need to provide a definition for developer manager in case that may also cause some disagreement. I find this article "Development managers vs. scrum masters" from atlassian, in a way the article has answered my question.

BTW, Harvard Business Review published an article called "What Great Managers Do Daily" said "Our data is a start, highlighting some traits of good managers that are actionable on a daily basis. " On daily basis, but how to do on a self-organizing team? This article is one of reasons I asked the question. Apparently when they did the research and published the article they didn't have the concept of self-organizing team in minds.

--- update ---

I come across this article "Why Agile rarely works in the Enterprise", which I highly recommend to anyone who is interested in my question.

Qiulang 邱朗
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    What do you mean by "people management?" Human Resources? Upper management? – Greg Burghardt Aug 23 '21 at 13:18
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    Supervisors? Please give us more information about what you mean by "people management." – Greg Burghardt Aug 23 '21 at 13:19
  • @GregBurghardt my first response would be team management (as my whole question is about "team") but if I assume (I could be wrong) then someone would ask what do you mean by "team management" So why bother. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 23 '21 at 14:09
  • @DocBrown not only was my question closed it also got 3 down-voted so far. I took it as a sign that people here hated a question like that or thought it was a stupid question. So why bother then? But I had to point out that I was not asking the question for sake of asking it. This is the problem in my organization that I had some "developer manager" told me he didn't know how to do his job as his team was "self-managed". – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 23 '21 at 14:22
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    @Qjulang often questions get closed and downvoted here not because they were bad ideas but asked in a way that causes problems. You're being asked to edit because we suspect that with some work you could create a well received question. Please don't let 3 downvotes discourage you. I know I had to take my fair share of lumps. – candied_orange Aug 23 '21 at 16:29
  • Even though I don't take downvote too personally I definitely take the delete vote personally. I just don't understand the mindset of delete vote. The question was closed and down-voted but it is still not enough for them?! But anyway I will try to re-edit my question just because of your words. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 24 '21 at 01:42
  • Hi, I have edited the question the best I can and to tell you the truth I don't really care whether it can be reopened or not now. It is more like finishing a homework you guys assigned to me. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 24 '21 at 04:28
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    I'm sorry. I'm really struggling to understand what the question is here. This is a genuinely interesting topic, but I think the specific question is lost. Unless it is just "how do you manage a self-organizing team" which might be too broad for anything short of a book. – Daniel Aug 24 '21 at 15:16
  • @Daniel I probably packed too much information in one question. Part of reasons was because my question was closed, down-voted, delete-voted. As I said in other comment Even though I didn't take downvote too personally I definitely took the delete vote personally. So I had planned to just it leave it. But after a second thought I tried to (maybe too hard) make my question as relevant and as focused as I could. So I added quite some information. But on the hand I had to say although this website has quite some Q&A about scrum. It does not have too much information and Q&A about management. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 24 '21 at 15:38
  • @Daniel my question is for management for the very beginning and just as you pointed out, the specific question is "How do you manage a team effectively on such self-managing team? Does the developer management's job/responsibility shift in some way for the self-organizing team compared to non-self-organizing team? " – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 24 '21 at 15:42
  • @Qiulang: I guess I now understand your question (mostly), and I like the question - but what I don't understand is what kind of answer you expect which is not already covered by the articles (especially the first two articles) you gave links by yourself? – Doc Brown Aug 26 '21 at 13:42
  • @DocBrown when I first asked the question I didn't do enough research as I did now. I just hoped someone who also experiences this challenge can answer it, cast some light on it. But the delete vote in some way "antagonize" me so I did quite some research and added as much information as I can find, trying to make my question relevant. I did find some answer when alone the way. So in a comment (up) I said "I have edited the question the best I can and to tell you the truth I don't really care whether it can be reopened or not now. It is more like finishing a homework you guys assigned to me." – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 26 '21 at 15:05
  • @DocBrown I still hope someone who experience this challenge can give an answer, like the article I quoted ""There is more to leading a self-organizing team than buying pizza and getting out of the way." – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 26 '21 at 15:08
  • @DocBrown a by-product of this question is this https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/368995/is-there-any-way-we-can-encourage-people-to-explain-delete-votes. I have 16 down-votes but I don't mind, but I will be really anger if that question is deleted. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 27 '21 at 02:05
  • @Qiulang: I guess you missed the fact voting on meta sites works differently: downvotes on meta just show disagreement to a suggestion, not that the question was a bad one. Hence I don't see why that meta question should be on the edge of being deleted. I recommend you take the time and dig through the many meta questions about voting and commenting which were already asked over the last decade, this was a hot debate over years, and a large majority of the community today is against any coupling of voting and commenting for various reasons. – Doc Brown Aug 27 '21 at 05:04
  • man if you didn't point that out I didn't even notice I said "I have 16 downvotes" , not "my question has 16 downvotes". They are the same to me as you can easily guess English is not my native language. I live my entire life in China, never live or work outside China. Now I am starting to wonder is it because of my English so you didn't get my question the first time ? – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 27 '21 at 05:34
  • I am totally honest with you that if I get delete vote I take it personal. If it is down-vote, it depends and that particular question on meta, I really don't mind, but if I get down-vote on stackoverflow I may be mind. Also I need to point you wrongly guess my purpose on that question on meta. I tagged "feature request" to hope all SE sites, except for meta can have a feature to let delete vote explain why. My request is not for meta site itself. Actually you pointed the meta to me, otherwise I don't even know where I can raise that feature request. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 27 '21 at 05:42

2 Answers2

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I first created truly "self-directed" teams in 1995, teams with no team leader or manager involved in daily operations. Now I operate Full Scale agile (yes, lower-case "a"), and I had an earlier consulting practice on teamwork development based on scientific research. Your question has literally filled books, including one I wrote (but now incorporate into my websites)!

In general, I believe Scrum organizations misunderstand the psychology of teams. If a team has a full-time organizer, they are not "self-organizing!" When someone has a degree of assigned hierarchy--as a full-time Scrum Master does--team members' brains are hard-wired to give some deference to that person and filter their opinions. And the designated leader is hard-wired to expect that to some degree.

Hence I train teams to rotate the Facilitator role (my preferred term). Or if the client already has designated SMs, I train them to manage at least three, and preferably four teams at once. Otherwise, an ethical Facilitator is almost certain to do things he/she/they should not be doing for the team to be fully empowered, because the Facilitator is trying to justify their pay.

There's a lot more to the process of converting to a truly self-organizing team. It takes time and effort, but there is plenty of evidence dating back decades that it pays off in the long run. My full approach is here (free and open source): Self-Directed Agile.

Even if you don't go to full self-direction, you can hand off many of the administrative decisions, from hiring through performance appraisals (the linked section has a checklist). Then the manager can become a servant leader focused on coaching instead of controlling; making sure team members have what they need, including information, instead of telling them what they can have; persuasion instead of commanding; listening instead of telling; and so on.

Feel free to tag me if you have questions.

Edits to answer comment questions:

First, be aware that self-directed teams that handle their own hiring, performance appraisals, etc., have existed for more than 70 years, with evidence they are more effective if properly formed. You can disagree with doing it with your teams, but they are historical facts!

HBR articles are not always based on research. That said, you're right, daily actions by a manager do have value. But two major reviews of the literature on teams (cited below) showed that a manager's biggest impact within a team or project lifecycle is at four points:

  • Pre-start (how the team is selected and formed),
  • Start (how the team is organized),
  • Mid-point (when there tends to be a readjustment of practices), and
  • End (learning lessons and preparing for the next project).

The daily actions should center on the types of I mentioned before ("coaching instead of controlling," etc.). The literature on "servant leadership" can tell you more about that.

As for Scrum, I have found it to be an extremely effective method for improving measurable team performance if implemented as a shortcut instead of a permanent solution--like any specific management practice. All of the complaints I see/hear about Scrum come from four root causes: false adoption (using Scrum words without really changing, like replacing a team leader with a full-time Scrum Master); incomplete adoption (you have to learn how the pieces fit together before dropping any); inappropriate application (for example, using Scrum where Kanban is more appropriate); and refusal to allow adaptation after it is mastered.

Additions for subsequent comments:

All of your objections indicate failures at those Pre-start and Start phases (by your employer, not you personally!). For example, the teams should be cross-functional--business people and tech people on the same team. You have to do Scrum (or any other formal method) as described before changing it, to fully understand the impact of those later changes. A great team cannot be created without breaking many of the common rules by which teams are structured (per the Self-Directed Agile section I linked above). And so on. In short, your objections are based on poor team structure or teamwork implementation. All of the concepts I have presented are backed by decades of research and successful practice in the real world.

Sources: Kozlowski, S., and D. Ilgen (2006), “Enhancing the Effectiveness of Work Groups and Teams,” Psychological Science in the Public Interest 7(3):77.; Hackman, R., and N. Katz (2010), “Group Behavior and Performance,” in Fiske, S., D. Gilbert, and G. Lindzey (eds.), Handbook of Social Psychology (195th ed.), Wiley: New York.

  • Hi I have quite some question I would like to discuss, e.g. the Harvard Business Review article I quote said "some traits of good managers that are actionable on a daily basis" but if "teams with no team leader or manager involved in daily operations" how does managers action on daily basis ? – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 27 '21 at 01:39
  • Another comment is I am not convinced a "fully" self-organizing/self-managing, e.g. I will disagree with your words "hand off hiring through performance appraisals", my another question about agile/scrum demonstrate my doubt https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/410482/how-do-i-prevent-scrum-from-turning-great-developers-into-average-developers – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 27 '21 at 02:04
  • Good questions, @Qiulang! I edited my answer to address these. – The Radical Agilist Aug 27 '21 at 14:01
  • One of main reasons I am not fully convinced self-organizing team is I have experienced, from time to time, that good/tech-savvy developers are not necessarily business-savvy ones. Sometimes they will focus on perfecting their technical solution too much without realizing we have a product to deliver in the end. Other times it is a cross-function feature that needs coordination, especially each team may have its own priority/schedule. Of course it is easy to say, coaching them, being a servant leader. But the reality from my experience is those are the times dev manager need to step in. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 30 '21 at 02:21
  • The other reason is also from my own experience, throughout my whole career, I seldom work with a "great" team, I have always work with some ordinary team. Of course I hoped/tried to make my team become a "great" team but I didn't. So I always find some level of "intervene", "command/control" is necessary. For example I engage in design review/code review from time to time to make sure the quality of our product. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 30 '21 at 03:57
  • Maybe someone will argue that "oh you don't do scrum right" but my other question is all about that. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 30 '21 at 03:59
  • Answer edited to respond. – The Radical Agilist Aug 30 '21 at 13:31
  • Hi, I appreciate you always responded to my comments. So I award my bounty as my appreciation. As far as scrum, and management question I raised is concerned, I need to tell you the truth that I am not fully convinced. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 30 '21 at 13:45
  • I am not fully convinced of scrum even though I have run scrum for many years. My other question shows one of the problems I experienced. The management question I raised here is another concern I have. Of course I understand they are the hard questions to answer. So I like to hear someone share their experience – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 30 '21 at 13:49
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How to manage the team effectively on such self-managing team?

By empowering the team and creating a good culture for the team to operate in.

Partly that is via traditional staffing duties. The manager makes sure that the team has enough people, people with the right sort of skills, the right balance of personalities and background, etc. They also make sure that people that aren't carrying their weight, are disruptive, or otherwise a drag on the team are let go.

Partly, that is via influence. They organize the team, and help the team come up with ground rules for interacting, decision making, accountability and so on. Some of those things might be done by members of the team naturally, and some of those things might be done because the manager delegates them. My team for example uses a directly responsible individual model for decision making. The person doing the work is the decision maker, and others may only advise them. The manager helps put that in position and to keep folks honest.

And partly, they do it by providing air cover. The rest of the org rarely is self-directed teams, and will often try to convert the team away from it. The manager can interface with the rest of the org so the team can focus on the work at hand. Again, members of the team might help naturally or because of delegation, but the manager is the one responsible for it.

Does the developer management's job/responsibility shift in some way for the self-organizing team compared to non-self-organizing team?

Yes, in general a manager needs to do more project management when the team is not self-organizing. What the tasks are, who is doing them, etc. That tends to be the focus of the "self-directing" descriptor.

Telastyn
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  • Hi, I am not fully convinced of scrum even though I have run scrum for many years. My other question https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/410482/how-do-i-prevent-scrum-from-turning-great-developers-into-average-developers shows one of the problems I experienced. The management question I raised here is another concern I have. Of course I understand they are the hard questions to answer. For example it is easy to say "by empowering, being a servant leader, etc." But how, especially on the daily basis? Anyway, thanks for answering my question. – Qiulang 邱朗 Aug 30 '21 at 14:00
  • How specifically on a daily basis depends on the team and the situation they’re in. There are fewer algorithms or processes for people work. – Telastyn Aug 30 '21 at 15:20
  • I jus read “The Pragmatic Programmer” 2nd edition, the author added tip 84 "Maintain Small, Stable Teams". I got the feeling that without a manager/leader, a self-managing team won't be able to do what the author mentioned in tip 84. At least won't be able to do it effectively. – Qiulang 邱朗 Sep 03 '21 at 06:59
  • I carefully compared what has changed between 1st edition and 2nd edition regrading the chapter Pragmatic Teams and found that the 2nd edition added a section called "SCHEDULE YOUR KNOWLEDGE PORTFOLIO", which is a task I feel should be carried out by a designed leader instead of the self-managing team. – Qiulang 邱朗 Sep 03 '21 at 09:09