2

RE: PD involving a small health & beauty product similar to a foot spa whereby the user will come into contact with water.

General description: Because malfunctioning foot spas have been known to kill, we have chosen to use a silicone heat pad (IP65) mounted under the stainless steel bottom so that the heater will never come into contact with the water unlike a foot spa which uses a coil heating element (similar to a household water heater) which has direct contact with the water and a pump which circulates the water. Also, we will use a quality 14/3 main power cord and a GFCI plug similar to this one but less expensive.

Two questions:

  1. Since we are using a GFCI, do we still have need for the 15amp fuse at the main power inlet or on the PCBA, or does the GFCI take the place of the fuse? By my limited knowledge (see my notes below,) it seems like a GFCI can take the place of a fuse but not the other way around.

Note: My knowledge of the differences between the two: GFCI - if the current flowing into the circuit differs by a very small amount (typically <.006 amperes) from the returning current, the GFCI interrupts power to prevent a lethal dose of electricity. Fuse - if more electricity flows through a fuse than it was designed for, the fuse heats up to a point of melting which stops the flow of electricity because of an open gap in the circuit thereby protecting the components.

  1. If it is determined that a 15A main power fuse is still beneficial in spite of using a GFCI, is it better to have it located at the main power inlet or as a component of the PCBA? Note: remember, this is for mass-production so ease of product assembly and raw material as well as labor costs are always a significant factor.

Once I complete the general design, I will turn it over to a team of engineers who will take it to the next level. Although it doesn't need to be perfect when they get it from me, I desire to look competent in this regard which is why I'm here searching for answers.

Edit 6/10/2023 See link to follow-up question here: Circuit Protection: on-board vs off-board; manual vs auto. Which is better for our application?

tayglo
  • 73
  • 9
  • 4
    Does your GFCI also include overcurrent protection? Not all of them do. – Hearth Jun 08 '23 at 19:18
  • Thank you for your quick input. I called the GFCI cord manufacturer and they do not have a GFCI cord with overcurrent protection. He went on to say that even though people have been requesting such a cord mounted GFCI with this extra feature, that to his knowledge no one has ever come out with one. Assuming he's correct, it looks like you've answered question #1 in that yes, I do need overcurrent protection via a fuse on the inlet or a PCBA mounted fuse if I can't find a cord mounted GFCI with overcurrent protection. Thanks for that info!! Now to question #2... – tayglo Jun 08 '23 at 19:54
  • 1
    Consider a resettable circuit-breaker. Button pops out when tripped, press to reset. Much less hassle than fuses. – rdtsc Jun 08 '23 at 20:11
  • Interesting! Like this? https://www.amazon.com/Button-Reset-Circuit-Breaker-Black/dp/B018TH9P4M – tayglo Jun 08 '23 at 20:19
  • It appears that our PCB designer/electronics engineer just found the solution to the circuit breaker: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Kuoyuh-97-series-10A-single-pole_1600651596086.html https://www.kuo-yuh.com/97-series-auto-reset-circuit-breaker.html – tayglo Jun 08 '23 at 22:07
  • However, we have yet to find a cord mounted 120/240 GFCI for the EU/UK/US. So we are now thinking that we will use a 120vac specific GFCI power cord for the US market and a 240vac specific GFCI power cord for the EU and UK markets. We will also have a specific 120vac (500watt) or a 240vac (500watt) silicone heat pad for each of those markets as well. Hence, same product for all markets with exception of the heat pad and GFCI. – tayglo Jun 08 '23 at 22:12
  • 1
    I'm not certain that an auto-reset circuit breaker will provide the required protection. It may be appropriate for short duration transient overloads such as a motor, but for a major fault like a shorted component, it would be dangerous if it continues to cycle on and off. A PCB mounted fuse would probably be inexpensive, and could be used in conjunction with the auto-reset breaker. – PStechPaul Jun 09 '23 at 23:27
  • Thanks for the heads-up. We started out with a PCB mounted fuse. Problem: on a consumer device, if she blows then it's got to be taken to a shop for warranty. But I get your point, better than replacing the cooked device. See comment #2 from top (#1331) in the link below. It looks like LEX@REDARC agrees with you: https://www.redarc.com.au/forum/discussion/255/circuit-breaker-vs-fuse Hmmm? – tayglo Jun 10 '23 at 02:48
  • @PStechPaul Would the GFCI play into this potential dangerous scenario that you laid out? Possibly I need to revisit the button reset circuit breaker independent of the PCB? Do You have any thoughts on this vs the on-board fuse? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B018TH9P4M – tayglo Jun 10 '23 at 02:59
  • My thinking is that a GFCI with a PCB mounted auto reset circuit breaker would prevent the ground fault scenario that you laid out. But I'm out of my field of expertise so I could be wrong. – tayglo Jun 10 '23 at 03:08
  • If a component fails and causes a short or overcurrent between line and neutral, the GFCI will not trip, and the breaker will continue to cycle on and off. It looks like SMT fuses rated 125 VAC or higher are limited to about 160 mA and cost about $1. – PStechPaul Jun 10 '23 at 03:48
  • I had the wrong search parameters. There are plenty of 125 VAC fuses up to 5A or so, for 25 cents or so. For 250 VAC prices are more like 50 cents. You might also consider PTC thermistor type resettable fuses, which limit fault current to a relatively safe value, and also in the 50 cent price range. – PStechPaul Jun 10 '23 at 04:09
  • (Sorry about adding to discussion. Perhaps a new question about circuit protection would be appropriate, or I can add my comments to an answer) As a point of reference, a 1A PTC fuse has a trip current of 2A and will trip in 15 seconds at 5A. It will then stabilize dissipating 2.64W and allows 22 mA into the load. This occurs at a temperature of about 125 C. Datasheet: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/643/ds-CP-0zrm-series-1664109.pdf – PStechPaul Jun 10 '23 at 04:29

3 Answers3

4

GFCI takes care of current going someplace it shouldn't, which includes into/through people. That is vital for anything with water, and you really need to supply it as part of the appliance. It has to be at the end of the cord because that way it protects every scenario, including wet hands on a damaged cord. Even though the NEC may well require GFCI protection on all receptacles in areas where you expect your product to be used, that is not enough because older locations are normally grandfathered and so you (the device manufacturer) can't guarantee the user will use a GFCI-protected receptacle even if you put that in the instructions. Since (at least in the US) any 120V 15A device can be plugged into any 120V 15A (or 20A) receptacle, regardless of whether the receptacle is GFCI protected or not, you can't rely on that.

The overcurrent protection is a different story. It is designed to protect the wiring, the device and the building from overheating and fire. You can assume that any receptacle for a 120V 15A device will include either 15A or 20A overcurrent protection, as that has been the standard for about a century. Some users may come up with crazy schemes - e.g., splitters off of 30A receptacles - but that is not your problem, and in fact such splitters, if they are actually safety certified will include overcurrent protection equivalent to what a 15A or 20A circuit would normally have in a fuse or breaker panel.

So that leaves the question of whether your device needs better overcurrent protection than the standard fuse or breaker. If the device normally uses close to the full rated power of a 15A circuit (12A continuous or 15A short term) then you may decide that additional protection isn't needed, depending on likely failure modes. A 12A device could use up to ~ 25A (20A + 20%) before tripping a standard 20A breaker. If likely catastrophic failure (i.e., where you would want to stop the entire device to avoid more damage) is likely to happen at far less than 25A then having your own protection (perhaps at 15A) makes sense. On the other hand, if likely catastrophic failure would take the form of a short circuit pulling 30A or more then relying on the standard (building circuit supplied) breaker is quite reasonable.

That being said, UL, ETL or other certifying agencies probably have far more detailed rules about when you must have your own protection, and assuming you pursue such certification, those rules matter far more than random people on the internet.

In addition, often a device will have smaller fuses (or breakers) in specific locations - e.g., to protect a motor controller board if the motor it is controlling overloads. While not fundamentally different from circuit overcurrent protection, the values could be quite different - 3A on a small circuit, etc.

  • Thank you for your astute answer. We have decided to go with either a GFCI circuit breaker mounted in a distribution box within the spa's compartment or a GFCI cord. However, we are conflicted about this excerpt "It has to be at the end of the cord because that way it protects every scenario, including wet hands on a damaged cord." Many portable plug-n-play spas have a GFCI breaker within the spa while others have a GFCI cord which gives the impression that a GFCI protects the circuit up and down. Are you saying that the GFCI breaker does not protect the cord? – tayglo Jun 14 '23 at 20:51
  • 1
    GFCI normally protects only in one direction. Is it *possible* to build a GFCI that protects both directions (upstream - back towards the breaker + downstream - towards the device) - yes. But I have never seen such a thing. – manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact Jun 14 '23 at 21:05
  • Excuse me for needing clarification but I'm not an EE and sometimes it's hard to wrap my head around this stuff...When you say "upstream - back towards the breaker," I assume you're talking about the household breaker because if we choose to put the GFCI breaker in a box in the spa compartment, that's a breaker too which is where my confusion is. If you're talking about upstream towards the household breaker, then I get it...the cord is not protected with a "conventional" GFCI breaker in the spa resulting in the GFCI power cord being our best bet if we want to cover cord shock. Thanks again!! – tayglo Jun 15 '23 at 00:24
  • 1
    A GFCI can be: In the main breaker box; in a subpanel (which is typical for a spa setup); together with the receptacle (e.g., where the spa cord plugs into the wall) or as part of the spa cord (in which case it should be at the end right next to the plug). It is quite normal for hair dryers and similar *small* appliances to have a GFCI in the cord - if the receptacle has GFCI or the breaker has GFCI (as any house built or renovated in the last 20+ years should have) then there is effectively double GFCI *and that's OK*. – manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact Jun 15 '23 at 01:17
  • I'm sorry I still don't understand. Possibly, I'm not explaining my scenario good enough for you to understand. If I install this breaker (yes, they make 6mA sensitivity): https://www.sourceasi.com/product/ndb1l-32c-16-120v-16-amp-gfci-circuit-breaker/ into this box: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09P7Z2C77/ and install the box within the spa compartment/housing (it becomes integral with the spa) (an indoor portable spa 12"x14" used on a table) will this breaker protect the power cord coming from the wall outlet inside the house connected to the portable spa and the breaker/box therein? – tayglo Jun 15 '23 at 01:43
  • All the scenarios that you laid out, I don't think covers my scenario. Hence, my sub panel with the GFCI breaker, would be located in the spa. So the power cord to which I refer does not go from the device to the sub panel but rather the sub panel (if that's what you call it when it's located within the spa) to the interior wall outlet. That's the power cord I'm trying to determine if it is, or isn't, protected by the GFCI circuit breaker located within the spa. Or, another way to explain it...if you took a hair dryer and mounted the GFCI in the hair dryer, would the cord still be protected? – tayglo Jun 15 '23 at 01:51
  • 1
    GFCI needs to be between the incoming power (from the utility to main panel etc.) and the first location where wet people could touch it. For a hardwired device, that can be done by *requiring* GFCI protection in the house someplace prior to where the wire is connected. But for a *portable* device (like yours) that pretty much has to be at the end of the cord, next to (really "with") the plug. Because otherwise you could run into situations where there is a problem (e.g., due to physical damage to the spa) and someone with wet hands pulls on the cord to yank it out of the wall (yes, people – manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact Jun 15 '23 at 02:12
  • 1
    will do such things). And in that situation, *just like with a hair dryer*, you want the GFCI protection at the farthest point possible, which is in/with the plug. I am sure there are a **lot** of other rules, but I am 99% certain that is going to be a minimum requirement if you want to get UL or ETL or equivalent certification. – manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact Jun 15 '23 at 02:13
  • I looked at the plug and play spas which are intended for outdoor use and are much bigger than our small consumer product (12" x 14") meant for interior use. And, several of those bigger plug and play outdoor spas had a built in GFCI circuit breaker (which is where I got the idea) with a power cord coming from the spa (without a GFCI) that you simply plug into an exterior wall outlet. Hence, because it's difficult for me to understand how they could make a spa product with a power cord that might expose someone to shock if that power cord were damaged, is probably why I'm somewhat confused. – tayglo Jun 15 '23 at 02:14
  • 1
    Without knowing more it is impossible to guess. It could be they have a design that somehow allows it. It could be they aren't UL or ETL certified. Don't know. – manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact Jun 15 '23 at 02:14
  • 1
    I can't thank you enough. I'm going to mark your answer as the answer. I will take your advice. Thanks!! – tayglo Jun 15 '23 at 02:15
1

It may be useful to provide another answer, further clarifying the pros and cons of various forms of circuit protection.

I'm not certain that an auto-reset circuit breaker will provide the required protection. It may be appropriate for short duration transient overloads such as a motor, but for a major fault like a shorted component, it would be dangerous if it continues to cycle on and off. A PCB mounted fuse would probably be inexpensive, and could be used in conjunction with the auto-reset breaker.

If a component fails and causes a short or overcurrent between line and neutral, the GFCI will not trip, and the breaker will continue to cycle on and off. It looks like SMT fuses rated 125 VAC are readily available up to at least 5A, for 25 cents or so. For 250 VAC prices are more like 50 cents.

You might also consider PTC thermistor type resettable fuses, which limit fault current to a relatively safe value, and also in the 50 cent price range. As a point of reference, a 1A PTC fuse has a trip current of 2A and will trip in 15 seconds at 5A. It will then stabilize dissipating 2.64W and allows 22 mA into the load. This occurs at a temperature of about 125 C.

Datasheet: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/643/ds-CP-0zrm-series-1664109.pdf

Note that this 1A PTC device has a maximum current of 10A, while its initial (cold) resistance is 0.18 to 0.47 ohms. So a solid short would result in an instantaneous current of 255 to 667 amps. This maximum current is also the interrupting rating, and that should be taken into account. A comparable 1A 250V fuse has an interrupting capacity of about 200A.

PStechPaul
  • 7,195
  • 1
  • 7
  • 23
  • 1
    Because of your astute observations, I actually deleted my answer until I know more. I will bring your post up in our Monday morning meeting for discussion. I'm a Mech. Eng. The more I learn about Electr. Eng., the more I realize why I chose Mech. Eng., Lol! I really do appreciate your input. I'll report back here once we have had a chance to mull this over. Thank you, – tayglo Jun 10 '23 at 05:06
0

The #1 question here has been answered; we do need an overcurrent circuit breaker with the GFCI. However, the answer to #2 regarding the ideal circuit protection for my particular application has become way more complex than I originally anticipated. At the suggestion by @PStechPaul, I agree that it would be beneficial to close this thread and open a new thread specifically relating to circuit protection. Once I ask the new question, I'll post the new thread link here for future reference.

I hope I'm doing this correctly and not breaking any rules.

tayglo
  • 73
  • 9
  • "Thread" is the wrong word to use. And you can't close the question--and it shouldn't be closed. This site doesn't work like a forum. But yes, you can ask a new question and link it *in your original question*; you shouldn't link it in an answer as it isn't really an answer. – Hearth Jun 10 '23 at 14:01
  • Thank you for that info. I will do that. – tayglo Jun 10 '23 at 21:41