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My understanding is that in the US (and Canada?) residential units receive split-phase 120V/240V power meaning the voltage between two phases is 2x the line-to-neutral voltage. Here in Europe residential units receive 3-phase 230V/400V power meaning the voltage between two phases is only 1.7x the line-to-neutral voltage.

Is there a reason for the European arrangement? If Europe also used split phase power then we could get one of these:

  1. 200V/400V power meaning most appliances would be safer due to the lower line-to-neutral voltage while power-hungry appliances (like stoves) could still get the same 400V as before.
  2. 230V/460V power meaning power-hungry appliances (like stoves) could get 60V higher voltage without there being a need raise the line-to-neutral voltage so most appliances would be just as safe as before.
  3. Some intermediate option between these.

To a layman like me 2x just seems better than 1.7x. Surely no one has an AC motor at home that would actually need all 3 phases? Is there some reason for delivering 3-phase power to households I'm not seeing or what is the reason for the European arrangement? Is it just an artifact of history that's too costly to change now?

QuantumWiz
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been [moved to chat](https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/137425/discussion-on-question-by-quantumwiz-is-3-phase-power-in-any-way-better-than-spl). – Voltage Spike Jun 30 '22 at 04:52
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    Most 240 V single-phase things in the US are either also rated to run on 208 V (120·√3), or come in 208 V versions, because apartments commonly use a three phase supply (120 V L-N, 208 V L-L) to the whole complex, then two of those phases to each apartment instead of split-phase. – Hearth Jul 03 '22 at 17:08
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    Worth mentioning that hardly anyone wires motors directly to 3-phase these days. You’ll use a VFD which converts whatever you have to 3 phase at an arbitrary frequency. – Navin Jul 28 '22 at 06:05

5 Answers5

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Three phase power is better in almost every way except the costs of the wiring to your premises, because it needs more conductors. In Europe thinner conductors due to the voltage, so the comparison is not direct.

Three phase power for residential in the Netherlands is 4 wires (L1-L2-L3-N) and an earth rod per house. This gives you 230V L-N and 400V L-L. Good for almost 17 kW with a typical 3x25A fusing on just 6mm2 cabling (10 AWG).
This is the default for new houses, and the wiring is there since 1960, they just never installed the other two fuses.
There is a HV-LV transformer per suburb, not per house.

Compared to 17 kw single phase which would give you a 1x75A service. That's a range where wiring and protection circuits become significantly expensive.

It also provides you with the possibility of running three phase motors, which is especially beneficial with high performance HVAC systems (which we use also for heating) or people with small workshops in the garage. Some big houses also have pools and flow-through shower heaters or sauna's that reap the benefits of this. These things require lots of power.

Also the possibility to put those heavy loads such as induction cooktops or PV inverters on all three phases balances the local grid preventing voltage sags.

I forgot the most high power load: EV-charging.

We can get up to 3x80A, but most people are on 3x25A or 3x40A. Which costs you 250 or 1000 euros per year. More than enough power, just don't turn everything on at once.

Jeroen3
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  • You said: "Some big houses also have pools and flow-through shower heaters or sauna's that reap the benefits of this. These things require lots of power." I think this part isn't really relevant to my question? With split-phase you can also get a lot of power by using two live wires with opposite phases (and the voltage would be 2x the L-N voltage rather than merely 1.7x). However, I guess if the HVAC systems, which you also mentioned, actually benefit from motors using all 3 phases of mains voltages then that's a good answer to my question. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 12:50
  • Why this is better? Because of reduction of phase split circuits? – mohammadsdtmnd Jun 28 '22 at 14:21
  • @QuantumWiz Voltage is only part of the story. 3phase can deliver more power. An oversimplified way to think about it is, how much current a wire can carry (amps). With 2 wires you can carry X amount of current. With 3 wires you can carry more. – Aaron Jun 28 '22 at 14:25
  • @Aaron If you used the copper going to the 3rd live wire instead to make the 2 live wires in split-phase system thicker you should get the same amount of extra power for the same amount of extra copper. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 14:40
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    Newer HVAC (especially larger, high end) systems tend to use variable speed compressors and fans (since they are much more efficient), so you probably would not specifically choose three phase for a new HVAC if the installation was small enough that the power company would let you use single phase. Otherwise you're just paying for more wiring that the DC power supply in the unit won't really benefit from. – user1850479 Jun 28 '22 at 14:46
  • Tankless water heaters are great, especially digitally-controlled ones. But you still need something in the 10-15 kW range for even a moderately sized apartment. – jaskij Jun 28 '22 at 17:39
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    @user1850479 3-phase is beneficial in variable-speed motors as well, you use smaller capacitors and the PFC part is somewhat easier. The same goes for EV chargers. – fraxinus Jun 29 '22 at 11:28
  • @QuantumWiz Too simplified. So look at a 3phase waveform diagram compared to a single phase. There is more time that there is voltage available. A single sine wave has to go to 0V, three phase doesn't do that. – Aaron Jun 29 '22 at 16:30
  • @Aaron But how many devices actually utilize that? I know that in industrial settings there are 3-phase AC motors that do but it's probably less common in a residential setting (though I did get some comments about some people wanting to 3-phase power tools in their garage). – QuantumWiz Jun 30 '22 at 07:53
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    @QuantumWiz Even if it goes to a 3phase bridge rectifier, the resultant ripple is much less; it never goes to zero. – Aaron Jun 30 '22 at 12:43
  • @Aaron Yes, if there's some device that needs DC taking in 3-phase power then that could be an advantage. I'd imagine that's probably not the case for home appliances but I'd guess it is the case for (slow) EV charging at home. I wonder if 3 phases makes EV charging easier in practice but certainly sounds plausible. – QuantumWiz Jun 30 '22 at 14:27
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120V is not a practical voltage for the more powerful household appliances, which is why 120V countries also get 240V split phase. Since most houses there have both 240V and 120V, manufacturers can sell powerful appliances in 240V and not bother to make 120V versions.

In 230-250V land, there is no need for that, so all appliances use 250V. And since few houses have three phase, no-one bothers to make three phase versions of most household products, unless it's justified by the power use of the appliance.

Split phase creates a strange situation in 120V land where you get all the annoyances of three phase power:

  • More wiring
  • Different, incompatible sockets
  • Got to balance the loads

...without the main advantage of three phase, which is that, if the load is balanced, power flows continuously instead of 100-120 times per second. This means, according to Wikipedia:

As compared to a single-phase AC power supply that uses two conductors (phase and neutral), a three-phase supply with no neutral and the same phase-to-ground voltage and current capacity per phase can transmit three times as much power using just 1.5 times as many wires (i.e., three instead of two). Thus, the ratio of capacity to conductor material is doubled.[9] The ratio of capacity to conductor material increases to 3:1 with an ungrounded three-phase and center-grounded single-phase system (or 2.25:1 if both employ grounds of the same gauge as the conductors). This leads to higher efficiency, lower weight, and cleaner waveforms.

(Note your 1.7x factor is wrong).

Basically, three phase would be better for everything, including switching power supplies because it gets rid of most of the big smoothing caps. However it is not practical to use at low power, due to the extra expense in wiring, plugs, sockets, PFC units, transformers, assorted electronics, etc.

However, if you get a big motor, or a big motor with a variable frequency drive (most commonly known as "heat pump") then three phase is a much better option. You just don't run a 10kW electric motor without three phase, and if you do, it's damn ugly.

bobflux
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  • Note that I'm only asking about the phases, not the lower 120V line-to-neutral voltage in the US. A split-phase system wouldn't preclude a higher voltage. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 12:54
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    You said: "Note your 1.7x factor is wrong". However, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken here. With 3 phases the angle between the phases is 120°. Thus the voltage between two phases should be √(2-2*cos(120°))=√3≈1.73 times the line-to-neutral voltage. 1.7 seems correct (to two significant figures). – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 13:00
  • The part quoted from Wikipedia doesn't quite seem to apply to my question. Even in the US, 3 phases are used for power distribution. It's just households that receive split-phase power after a transformer with a center tap. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 13:12
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    @QuantumWiz 1.7 *is* wrong because you are using it in the wrong way. See my answer – DKNguyen Jun 28 '22 at 13:49
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    Yes, you don't have to only look at voltage between 2 wires when you have 3 phases – bobflux Jun 28 '22 at 14:29
  • In Europe many houses do have three phase power. – Uwe Jun 29 '22 at 06:14
  • But how many home appliances actually use 3 phases. I think even in stove tops each hot plate would only use 1 or 2, not all 3. – QuantumWiz Jun 29 '22 at 08:41
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    VFDs with single-phase input and 3-phase output do exist. Of course they have huge smoothing capacitors inside them. I expect most "inverter drive" appliances that plug into the wall (e.g. fridges) do have these inside. – user253751 Jun 29 '22 at 09:01
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    @QuantumWiz Yeah, the typical stovetop actually uses two phases in a L-N setup, so 2x230 V breakered at typically 16 A each. That's exactly the same amount of power as your proposed 460 V L-L setup (assuming the same current rating). It does need an extra neutral wire, but that 460 V setup would likely use one as well anyway (240 V sockets with no neutral are AFAIK getting obsolete in the US as well). – TooTea Jun 29 '22 at 09:09
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    @QuantumWiz Heat pumps are a common example, the smaller ones are single phase but the more powerful ones need 3 phase power – bobflux Jun 29 '22 at 09:09
  • @bobflux Do they actually use 3 phases rather than just the higher voltage between phases? – QuantumWiz Jun 30 '22 at 10:23
  • 3 phase for the big ones. Mine doesn't have a VFD, it's just a 3 phase motor. – bobflux Jun 30 '22 at 11:32
  • @TooTea: I wonder how much it would cost to manufacture three-prong to four-prong adapters with a center tap transformer, along with a thermal cutout that would disconnect both phases at the source? In cases where running new cable to a stove or dryer outlet would be difficult, I would think such a transformer could offer the safety advantages of a four-prong plug without requiring extra wiring. – supercat Jul 01 '22 at 18:12
  • @supercat If you’re talking about the lack of a ground pin in 3 pin connectors, why not just add GFCI? It’s safer than grounding and way safer than a virtual ground. – Navin Jul 28 '22 at 06:16
  • Given a three-prong outlet with two hots and a neutral which are totally isolated from everything else en route to the panel would be fine if protected via GFCI, but many three-prong plugs aren't wired that way, instead using a ground connection that might be connected to many exposed metal surfaces. If a grounding connection connects to a hot water pipe close to an outlet, and to a cold water pipe close to the panel, and someone is using a sink with separate hot and cold taps, large currents through the grounding conductor could create a potential difference between those taps. – supercat Jul 28 '22 at 16:25
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I am not sure why so much focus on the voltage difference. That is missing the point. In three phase power you use all three phase wires to deliver power so you can't ignore that. So using a metric of 1.73 for the line-to-line (or line-to-neutral voltage) for three phase power is wrong because by using 1.73 you implying that all you did was connect a device up to only two phases of a three-phases supply thus forcing it to run as a single phase at the same current as the split phase. You can't ignore the other phase wires and the currents in them.

NOTE: As a layman you will need to read up the voltage and current measurements in wye and delta systems; Namely the difference (and equivalence) between:

  • phase voltage vs line-to-line voltage vs line-to-neutral voltage
  • phase current vs line current

The phase value definitions are the same between wye and delta because they are internal to the wye or delta. However, the structure of the delta or wye may not make these phase values directly measurable from "outside" which is what line values are. Therefore line values have different, often swapped, relationships to the phase values depending on wye or delta.

It is most obvious examining a 4-wire delta. A wye has the neutral point "invisible" and not physically accessible even if you are looking inside the delta; You can only mathematically access it.

The main reason you need to know these is that power calculations need to be consistent in the voltage and currents used. No mixing inconsistent definitions of voltage and current in your power calculation.

You will want to refer to a wye and delta schematic (\$\phi\$ is for phase):

WYE:

\$V_\phi=V_{L-N}\ne V_{L-L}\$

\$I_\phi=I_{L}\$

DELTA:

\$V_\phi=V_{L-L}\ne V_{L-N}\$

\$I_\phi\ne I_{L-L}\$


Thus, the same phase voltages and phase currents, it is 2VI for split-phase vs 3VI for three phase. It is also the same result if you use line currents and line-to-line voltages. (Note how I am using only internal values or external values together. Line-to-neutral is not explicitly mentioned because although it is sometimes equivalent to some of the values used, it is not explicitly always internal or external between wye and delta and I do not want to divide things up by that because it would get confusing).

Therefore, for 50% more copper you get 50% more power carrying ability, less peaky power delivery, and a naturally rotating magnetic field.


"Surely no one has an AC motor at home that would actually need all 3 phases?"

I want a three phase bench grinder for my garage but I can't get one because I don't have three phases. Or a table saw. Power delivery is less peaky in three phase and motors are simpler, run and start more smoothly while being simpler (cheaper and more reliable).

DKNguyen
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    You said: "by using 1.73 you implying that all you did was connect a device up to only two phases of a three-phases supply thus forcing it to run as a single phase at the same current as the split phase". Well, to me a good example of a power-hungry device at home is a stove top. To my knowledge, each of the hot plates uses just 1 or 2 phases, not all 3. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 14:50
  • I guess the power tools you mentioned are a good reason for 3-phase power at home. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 14:50
  • @QuantumWiz That's like saying why would you ever use a car? It is completely unsuited for flying through the sky. Why would you ever use a hammer? It can't even cut anything. A flashlight seems a bit pointless since you can't run it off wall power. Not a fair comparison. By choosing to run one or split phase devices off a three phase supply, you are not using three phases as it was intended and then concluding it has few benefits. – DKNguyen Jun 28 '22 at 14:57
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    My impression was that household items generally used only 1 or 2 phases and e.g. 3-phase AC motors would be mostly restricted to industrial settings. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 16:44
  • @QuantumWiz I think I understand the context of your question a bit more. In North America most houses are wired single-phase so most appliances are single-phase as a matter of course. In Europe, houses are wired three-phase while most appliances still single-phase and I guess you are wondering why the appliances aren't mostly also three phase? Or why the house isn't split or single-phase? I assume the typical outlet in the house does not provide access to the full 3-phase? – DKNguyen Jun 28 '22 at 17:08
  • In North America the split phase is actually derived from one of three phases on the utility distribution and this is split-phase run to the house. In Europe, the distribution would also be three-phase and it sounds like they just run that straight to the house (after a step-down three-phase transformer somewhere) and inside the house only one of those phases is tapped into for most outlets So it's not that different. – DKNguyen Jun 28 '22 at 17:11
  • The main difference is that in North America it probably costs a bit less on the whole but then it costs more when you need three-phase while in Europe it's the reverse. So home devices are mostly single-phase because they are high enough power or need to be good enough to need three-phase but when you do the option is more easily accessible. – DKNguyen Jun 28 '22 at 17:12
  • I'm not wondering why most appliances don't use 3-phase. Basically, it seemed that with split-phase we could get 200V/400V which would be a bit safer than 230V/400V (but e.g. stove tops could still get 400V). That seemed like an improvement to me. I thought that e.g. actual 3-phase AC motors would only exist in industrial settings. – QuantumWiz Jun 28 '22 at 20:11
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    Getting the three phases in the right order for motors is necessary. Sure, swap any two phases and the motor will turn the other way, but that is a complexity that most homeowners really aren't up to dealing with. And, no, I would not trust most modern home builders to get it right (or suppliers). – Jon Custer Jun 28 '22 at 23:31
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    @JonCuster Hmm that is a good point. Then again it's the same thing with home builders getting neutral and hot correct. Homeowners getting it correct doesn't seem like that big a concern. – DKNguyen Jun 28 '22 at 23:38
  • Also, on the three phase power at home - an old boss of mine solved that with a motor-generator set with a 3 phase generator for his serious woodworking tools in his garage. – Jon Custer Jun 28 '22 at 23:54
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    @JonCuster There are electronic 3 phase generators now, mechanical motor-generator sets are not needed nowadays. – Uwe Jun 29 '22 at 01:26
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    @JonCuster In Europe there are special three phase plugs with an integrated phase order changer. So swap any two phases may be done without opening the plug or the wall socket. – Uwe Jun 29 '22 at 01:33
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    @Uwe - true that - just saw one on a piece of equipment yesterday! (Electronic 3-phase from 2-phase that is). – Jon Custer Jun 29 '22 at 01:37
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    @QuantumWiz I think you're overestimating the need for multiple phases in 230V supplied countries. Most houses here in Australia only have a single phase at 65-80A supply, with 3 phase being the exception (huge A/C units mostly). 3 phase ovens and dryers are very rare, unlike 240V kit in the US where pretty much every house needs the split phase to power the bigger units. – throx Jun 30 '22 at 03:31
  • @throx I don't think you can say I'm overestimating the need for multiple phases. If there is no need for multiple phases then split-phase should suffice. I was wondering what is the reason for delivering all 3 phases to residential units. – QuantumWiz Jun 30 '22 at 07:56
  • @QuantumWiz There's no need for split-phase either with residential supply at 230/240V. It's just single phase to neutral with no need for a transformer per residence. Not sure why NL delivers all 3 phases to residential. – throx Jun 30 '22 at 23:36
  • @throx It's beneficial for power hungry devices such as stove tops to get a higher voltage between phases (whether they are 120° or 180° apart) so that they don't need to draw as much current. – QuantumWiz Jul 01 '22 at 09:58
  • @QuantumWiz: If an oven had three heating elements, each connected between one phase and neutral, it would produce three times as much heat as would be produced by using one phase and neutral, but if the phases are balanced one could eliminate the neutral wire. If one were to eliminate one phase from the Y-configured heaters with the neutral wire missing, the amount of wire required would be dropped by a third, but two heaters would operate at reduced power while the third would cease to operate altogether, meaning total power would drop by more than a third. – supercat Jul 01 '22 at 18:02
  • @QuantumWiz Your split phase is just a higher voltage single phase. You could run three phase at that same line to neutral voltage with the same effort, and get 50% higher power transfer for the copper used. – throx Jul 02 '22 at 10:26
  • @supercat Yes, but that's because in your example the current drawn by the 2 remaining phases also drops. If you could also then swap the heating elements for ones with a lower resistance you could then draw as much current per phase as before and only have the power by 1/3 smaller rather than more. – QuantumWiz Jul 02 '22 at 22:20
  • @throx Split-phase is not the same as single phase. With split-phase, the line-to-neutral voltage is half of the full voltage you can get between 2 phases. That's somewhat safer than just having a live and neutral wire with the live-to-neutral voltage being double. With 3-phase power you don't 50% more power for the copper used. If we assume you keep the line-to-neutral voltage and wire thickness the same switching to 3-phase power needs 50% copper used for the live wires while allowing 50% power through those wires. – QuantumWiz Jul 02 '22 at 22:27
  • @QuantumWiz Split phase has a minimum of three wires. Three phase also a has a minimum of three wires (delta or wye with neutral omitted). The split phase neutral carries no current when a load is placed across both phases so is useless, yet still there because it is split phase. Using that same wiring for three-phase will carry 50% more power for the exact same copper. Three phase carries 50% more power for 50% more copper than single phase, but three phase carries 50% more power than split phase for the SAME copper. – DKNguyen Jul 02 '22 at 22:37
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    @DKNguyen In principle, split-phase shouldn't need a neutral wire (though maybe there's some advantage in including it?). – QuantumWiz Jul 02 '22 at 22:41
  • @QuantumWiz That's the catch. If split phase doesn't have that third neutral wire, then it just ends up having a second neutral wire and just becomes single phase with double the voltage. That split phase lets you accommodate those lower voltage devices and the price paid is unused copper when using it for higher voltage, higher power devices. It's a bit like having that fourth neutral wire in a three-phase wye when you don't need it. It allows you to run unbalanced loads or run single-phase devices off just one phase out of the three, but if you aren't doing that it's a waste of copper. – DKNguyen Jul 02 '22 at 22:47
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    @DKNguyen It's still not the same as single phase with double the voltage. It's somewhat safer. If you accidentally touch something connected to a live wire and something grounded you only get shocked with half the supplied voltage in the case of split-phase. – QuantumWiz Jul 03 '22 at 19:20
  • @QuantumWiz so you're claiming that two hots is safer than one plus a neutral? Interesting. – throx Jul 03 '22 at 22:24
  • @QuantumWiz As far as the device being powered is concerned, it is the same. I do not see why you are pulling safety into it when we are talking about how much power is delivered for the copper used. – DKNguyen Jul 03 '22 at 22:58
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    The first comment in this thread saying that they would be the same was "Your split phase is just a higher voltage single phase" by @throx which didn't specify that it would be only about the amount of power drawn. My original question mentioned also the safety aspect. Thus mentioning it seemed relevant to me. – QuantumWiz Jul 04 '22 at 21:08
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    @throx Yes (for a given voltage delivered), or that's what I've heard anyway. – QuantumWiz Jul 04 '22 at 21:11
  • @QuantumWiz So, at the very least, the logical reason for 3 phase from a provider's view is standardisation. If you are delivering the same thing to residential as hobbyist and industrial clients then you don't have to have different rules everywhere and different training. 3 phase has better power delivery (smooth power vs start/stop), so you just settle on one. There is no electrical advantage to splitting a higher voltage phase because you're using a custom transformer at that point so could just as easily do the same thing at 3 phase. – throx Jul 05 '22 at 02:46
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    @throx It wouldn't really be custom since those types of transformers are common in the US at least. – QuantumWiz Jul 05 '22 at 22:50
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The split phase power is used in Canada and the USA but not in Europe. All electronics like computers, audio and video equipment may be powered with 110 V or 230 V AC. So split phase has no advantage over single phase.

All electric appliances used in apartments and residential homes may be used with a single phase only. Brushless motors for dishwashers and washing maschine may be built as induction motors with a capacitor.

Continuous water flow heaters for showering need much power, over 20 kW. The power distribution company may prefer to connect these as a symmetric three phase load.

Kitchen stoves may be connect to single phase as well as three phase. If used with one single phase circuit breaker, you may not use all cooktops together with maximum power.

Quick chargers for electric cars may require three phases too.

If you got solar panels with more power, a three phase inverter may be required by the provider.

So three phase power is better only for large loads to reduce neutral current and to balance load to all phases.

Uwe
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    In the Netherlands any load over 5.75kVA **must** be connected to 3 phases according to [Dutch law, article 2.33 (in dutch)](https://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0037940/2022-05-18), and use the three phases equally as much as possible. – Pelle Jun 29 '22 at 11:36
  • @Pelle Balancing between the phases would at least seem easier with split-phase since there are only 2 phases to balance between rather than 3, but maybe that's not a huge issue. – QuantumWiz Jun 29 '22 at 11:49
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    @QuantumWiz: No, it is not, it is even worse! US split phase systems start as 3 phase at the generator and AC transmission lines. Ultimately, those phases must be (close to) balanced. It is only on the final level that the three phases are run as single phase to the house/street transformers, where the phase is split. This means that for a split phase both legs need to be (close to) balanced _as well as_ the the three phases of the distribution transformer. – Pelle Jun 29 '22 at 12:07
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    @Pelle: A split-phase transformer which can handle 500kVA combined on both phases won't have any problem feeding 250kVA on one phase and zero on the other. It could only deliver half as much power on one phase as it would be able to deliver if both phases were balanced, but if the transformer is sized to handle peak loads a utility would have no reason to care about imbalance. As for three-phase balance, a large number of small customers arbitrarily divided among the three phases will generally present a relatively balanced load, and it's possible to use three-phase step-down transformers... – supercat Jul 01 '22 at 17:45
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    ...that will present a relatively balanced load to their supply even if the demand side load is unbalanced. If one phase has a higher demand than the others, the transfer of power between phases via the rotating magnetic field won't be as efficient as the transfer between an in-phase primary and secondary, but the system will be somewhat self-balancing. – supercat Jul 01 '22 at 17:49
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There are a few rural properties in the UK that get a 230/460V 100A supply. It's only offered if a single phase isn't enough, and the nearest supply is only 11kV single phase. Given that three phase overhead lines are normal, it isn't commonly used.

A 230/460V 100A supply is inferior to a 230/400V 100A three phase one. The former can supply 46kW, the latter supplies 69kW. The voltage being a little bit lower isn't that important.

A 230/400V supply is enough for pretty much all houses, offices and light industry. At 69kW for 100A, that supplies as much as most premises will need.

Simon B
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    " The former can supply 46kW, the latter supplies 69kW." But this is because in that example there's more copper used (because of the 3rd live wire). You could similarly raise the 46 kW to 69 kW by making the live wires 50% thicker. – QuantumWiz Jun 29 '22 at 07:59