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I've recently bought a wall adapter off amazon which claims to be able to output 5V @ 2A. I tested this adapter by connecting a probe to the +5V output, and WOW! My scope shows a 150V Pk-pk 60 Hz... RC-like curve. In this case I connected the ground to earth, to make sure that I don't damage the scope. You can see this below, Yellow = input 1 (GND), Green = input 2 (+5V), pink = math (Yellow - Green)

enter image description here

My question is: Is this normal to see, and is this safe? I'm not sure that I should even be using a power supply that can output 106VAC... Can I hook up my probe ground to the output of one of these circuits?

SamGibson
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tuskiomi
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    This is a normal effect of the so called Y capacitor inside the supply because it has no PE connection. You can connect scope GND to supply - – Jens Jun 20 '22 at 01:10
  • @Jens ah! that's good to know! is there a conventional way to tell the Y- capacitor from a safety flaw? – tuskiomi Jun 20 '22 at 02:51
  • There are special safety tests with huge overvoltage stress for capacitors, that qualify for X or Y usage. X is for caps between life and neutral, Y for life and PE or secondary GND. I have seen many dead X capacitors from flash impact, but seldom dead Y caps. This may be the case because Y caps die just losing capacitance and that might not be noticed. – Jens Jun 20 '22 at 03:03
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    Did you try plugging it into the mains socket the other way around? – Dave Tweed Jun 20 '22 at 03:39
  • There are a lot of junk adapters out there. The picture for this one in Amazon shows a UL listing. Does the one you received have a UL listing on the adapter itself? – manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact Jun 20 '22 at 04:56
  • @DaveTweed it's hard-wired at the moment, but the PCB is labeled with HOT and NEU, and is connected according to that. – tuskiomi Jun 21 '22 at 19:04
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    The older question, to which this question has been marked a duplicate, deals with a different scenario. Larger power supplies, such as the laptop charger in the older question need Y caps to attenuate common mode noise. Smaller power supplies, such as 5 v wall adapters, because of their smaller size, generally do not need such Y caps. Therefore, the answer to the older question -- Y-caps -- does not fit for the newer question. Thus, this question, imho, is not a duplicate. It requires a _different_ answer. – Math Keeps Me Busy Jun 21 '22 at 21:51

1 Answers1

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Many small "offline" power supplies resemble the partial schematic below.

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

Power comes from the mains supply, passes through an EMI filter (omitted from the schematic), and is then rectified and smoothed. The output of the rectifier/smoother section is a high voltage DC bus. The positive and negative lines of this high voltage DC bus are fed into a DC-DC converter, the details of which are omitted from this schematic.

Note that the mains Neutral wire is connected to the Protected Earth (at the building's main circuit breaker panel). This protected earth is represented in this schematic as the ground symbol. Other schematics may have the ground symbol placed elsewhere, such as at the negative rail of the High Voltage DC Bus, or at the negative output of the DC-DC converter (not shown here). Do not be confused by where the ground symbol is placed, for it makes no difference to the actual functioning of the circuit. In this schematic the ground symbol is attached to the protective earth because we are interested in voltages relative to the ground wire of a building, or to conductive objects, such as pipes in a building, that have an electrical path to the ground.

The following graph shows the differential mode and common mode voltages of the high voltage DC bus. The differential mode voltage is just the voltage difference between the positive and negative rails of the high-voltage DC bus. The common mode voltage is the average of the voltages of the two rails relative to ground.

enter image description here

As one can see, the differential mode voltage is approximately the peak mains voltage with some ripple in it. The common mode voltage is a sine wave with a voltage of 1/2 the mains voltage. It is this common mode voltage on the high voltage DC bus that is the root source of the high voltage that may be observed between ground (i.e. mains ground) and the outputs of the power supply. Again, don't be confused by the fact that negative output of the power supply might be "identified" as ground in some schematics and in some contexts. We are talking about mains ground here).

If the inputs to the DC-DC converter were galvanically connected to the outputs, the explanation of the high voltage AC measured at the output of the power supply would be complete simply by referring to the common mode voltage of the high voltage DC bus. However, the internals of the DC-DC converter typically contain a "flyback transformer" which galvanically isolates the high voltage DC bus from the power supply output. That is, the power supply output is theoretically "floating" with respect to the high voltage DC bus and to the mains ground.

Here is the schematic for a typical 5V wall adapter illustrating the use of a flyback transformer.

enter image description here

(circuit found in the EE Times article Power Tip 52: Making over the wall wart)

Although the secondary side of the flyback transformer is floating relative to primary side, the transformer has inter-winding capacitance. In the absence of some stronger effect, the inter-winding capacitance will cause the common mode voltage from the high voltage DC bus to appear as a common mode voltage on the power supply outputs. That is what you are measuring. (Remember that the common mode voltage of the DC bus is actually AC! So, it can pass across a capacitor).

However, the inter-winding capacitance is small, meaning that it's impedance is very high. The voltage can be measured with an AC volt-meter, or with an oscilloscope. That is because the input impedances of these instruments are high. However, if a low impedance path is connected between the power supply's negative rail and mains ground, the voltage between them will drop dramatically. A high voltage through a very high impedance, like in this case, is called a ghost voltage or a phantom voltage. It is measurable, but "disappears" when connected to a "practical" circuit. It is therefore not a danger to you. Furthermore, ghost/phantom voltages generally cannot produce enough current within your body to be felt. That is, they don't have noticeable "touch" current.

Not all power supplies are like that, however. Yours is a 5V wall adapter, and I have been writing specifically about such an adapter. Generally, such adapters have too little power to require a particular and significant filtering step that changes the analysis. Larger power supplies, and by that I mean only slightly larger, often have problems with electromagnetic interference. Particularly noise that is conducted back from the DC-DC converter back into the mains wiring. To mitigate this problem in some power supplies lacking a ground connection, a "Y" capacitor is added across the flyback transformer. The capacitance of this Y capacitor is larger than the inter-winding capacitance, so the two sides of the transformer are linked by a lesser impedance. The voltage is in this case not "phantom" or "ghostly" but "real". In fact, in some cases, significant "touch current" can be developed, as in the case of the power supply discussed in this question, where the OP experienced a shock from his laptop computer charger.

enter image description here

(Schematic taken from this answer)

Math Keeps Me Busy
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  • so the Y capacitor must be in the nf or pf range to be able to sink into the earth then, right? – tuskiomi Jun 20 '22 at 20:24
  • I'm not sure what you mean by "sink into the earth again" – Math Keeps Me Busy Jun 20 '22 at 21:11
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    @tuskiomi The reason for nF values is legal requirement on <250 uA. – winny Jun 21 '22 at 18:23
  • How do power supplies with an earth connection provided, handle this? Do they connect the CAP to ground, instead of connecting it to the other side of the transformer? – Linkyyy Jun 22 '22 at 17:15
  • @Linkyyy Power supplies with an earth connection either connect the negative output to earth, so the output is not floating, or add a capacitor whch is significantly larger than the transformer inter-winding capacitace between ground and some part of the secondary side circuit – Math Keeps Me Busy Jun 22 '22 at 17:20
  • Question, alternatively, why not connect the negative terminal of the DC output to earth in all cases? why use the Y capacitor at all? – tuskiomi Jun 22 '22 at 22:45
  • @tuskiomi Not all outlets/plugs have a ground pin. Regarding using neural instead of ground, outlets in some countries are not polarized. Even when outlets are polarized, like in US, some outlets are wired backward. The result of connecting the power output to mains line instead of neutral could be catastrophic/fatal, so only when there is a dedicated ground wire is the power supply output connected to it. – Math Keeps Me Busy Jun 23 '22 at 01:37
  • @MathKeepsMeBusy that's why I said earth and not neutral.. all outlets in the US are required to have a ground since... well... a long time. – tuskiomi Jun 23 '22 at 01:48