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A circuit with three capacitors and an open end at A:

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I am a high school student. I am very confused by this example.

The circuit is open at end "A" as shown but still there would be some surface charges on the capacitor which is not connected in closed circuit. There would be surface charges on the wires so that the net electric field everywhere inside the conductors will be 0, but in the school textbook they say that current will not go towards an open end so we can treat those two capacitors which are connected in closed circuit to be in series combination. Also all the charges that are accumulating on one plate would come from the other plate connected in series.

In this way all the charge that leave from one end of the battery would enter into other end, but how is this even possible?

Charges are accumulating on wires also and on capacitor which have an open end but we are ignoring them. Why? If we don't ignore them then the capacitors would not be in series and also the charges leaving one end of battery and entering other would not be equal.

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    I'd recomment to break your wording in phrases, it's difficult to read. Anyway, this is a tricky question since usually you either a) ignore parasitics or b) compute parasitic effects. If you consider residual charges on wire you are considering parasitics, but at the same time you are ignoring leakage current in the capacitor and parasitic capacitance to the external ground. So IMHO the problem is not well-posed. I think your doubt are legitimate, ask your instructor – Lorenzo Marcantonio May 24 '22 at 07:57
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    +1 on what @LorenzoMarcantonio said. It's down to if you threat this as an ideal circuit or a real one with parasitics, such as stray capacitance via air. – winny May 24 '22 at 08:12
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    The pair of capacitors connected in the closed circuit are in series. It makes no difference to that statement whether the 3rd capacitor's terminal A is connected somewhere or not. Obviously it makes a difference to how you would analyze the circuit, but those 2 caps are in series no matter what you do with 'A'. – brhans May 24 '22 at 10:07
  • @brhans, that's not correct. If A is connected somewhere (with a return path to the power source), then not all current that flows through the left capacitor must also flow through the right capacitor, and they are not in series. For example, we can't use the series capacitors formula to find the equivalent capacitance of the combination, or the series impedance formula to find the equivalent impedance of the combination. – The Photon May 24 '22 at 15:27
  • "Why must the incoming and outgoing current in a battery always be equal?" -- because, like gravity, it's the law. – ilkkachu May 24 '22 at 17:22
  • It's certainly possible for 2 components to be in series with each other as well as some other part. The fact that there might be another current path wouldn't change that the 2 caps are in series with each other - it's just not a *simple* series circuit. – brhans May 24 '22 at 19:50
  • @ThePhoton even when its connected like this, there should be some surface charges on wires as well as on the capacitor because only that can change the potentials of wires and the top capacitor from what it was initially,,, so I don't think any reason that charges entering 1st capacitor should be equal to charges leaving the 2nd one why can't some go up and build up there? also there is no law except maxwell equations for electromagnetism so what ikkachu said is completely wrong and doesn't have any mathematical proof – Arun Bhardwaj May 26 '22 at 05:38
  • @ArunBhardwaj, if you want to model that effect, you can include parasitic capacitance elements between each circuit node and whatever surrounding objects you like. But the model presented doesn't include any such parasitics. – The Photon May 26 '22 at 15:07

2 Answers2

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Unless this circuit is being operated with a voltage source with frequency in the megahertz or more, there's not much point in analysing what happens to actual charges here.

You can rely on Kirchhoff's Current Law to tell you everything you need to know about this circuit, and yes, it works for capacitors too. If you insist on talking about charges, let me assure you, that if one single electron enters one side of a capacitor, then another exits the other side. If that happens to the top capacitor in your diagram, you now have a greater charge density at A than before, and the change in potential that causes would simply push the electron right back in again.

Because current in equals current out, and because there is "infinite" resistance to current flow out of A, no current flows in that top capacitor, and you can consider it to be entirely absent. Consequently, all that remains is the other capacitors in series.

As far as charges entering and leaving the voltage source are concerned, one thing is certain; no electron that leaves that source can ever return to it "in person" because there are dielectric barriers in the capacitors, which the electrons cannot traverse.

This should tell you that the electrons entering the voltage source must already be present in the wire connected to it. I'm alluding to your idea that charges accumulate in wires, which is not the case. They are always there. Like when you switch on the tap in your bathroom, water emerges immediately, because water was already in the pipe. If the pipe was empty, sure, you would have to wait for the water to arrive from the tank, but that's not how electric current works. Charges are always present in conductors, it's simply not possible to "empty" them of charge.

What I just said is true, but capacitors seem to act differently. It is possible to remove charges from a plate, but as you do, more charges will be drawn onto the other plate as a result. The total quantity of charges on both plates of a capacitor doesn't change, but their distribution within, does. This is why I can say that if charge enters one capacitor terminal, then the same amount of charge must necessarily leave out of the other terminal. Current in equals current out, in accordance with Kirchoff's Current Law. All that has changed, really, is the distribution of charges on the plates of the capacitor, and no charge ever crosses the dielectric.

So, I reiterate, since by Kirchhoff's Current Law we see that no current can flow out of the capacitor to node A, no current can flow into that capacitor, and it can be disregarded. If for some reason charge made it out of the capacitor into node A, this would disturb the equilibrium of charge distribution within that node, and the resulting change in potential would simply cause the equilibrium to restore itself, pushing charge back into the capacitor.

Of course, charges are moving all the time, mainly due to kinetic energy which we call "heat", so what I am describing here is an "average" behaviour of trillions of charges. Sure a few might move upwards towards A, but they will displace another bunch back down again, so on average, there's no current flow.

So, ignoring individual charge behaviour, en-masse they behave in such a way that it is simply not possible for charges to enter anything without an equivalent quantity also leaving, which may or may not be the same actual charges. When you charge a battery, there are not more electrons in it now than there were before, they are simply distributed differently with the battery. Current in always equals current out, and that's Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL) in a nutshell.

Edit: I'd like to say also that when people refer to "charge accumulating in a capacitor", that's misleading. Accumulation of charge on one plate results in an equal depletion of charge on the other, so there's no net accumulation; only a change of distribution.

Also, just to drive the point home, within a section of wire, there are a certain number of electrons which are mobile, and can participate in "electric current". That number doesn't change, whether current is flowing or not. When a million electrons are pushed in one end, a million are shoved out of the other end, the total number occupying the wire section never changing.

You should discard the notion that charge "builds up" anywhere, except under very particular circumstances. For example, a FET's gate may accumulate electrons, but that will simply expel electrons in the channel, forming a depletion zone. From the perspective of an observer outside this FET, though, KCL was obeyed, because those expelled electrons will manifest an equal charge flow out of the drain and/or source. In other words, even though individual devices may rely on some imbalance of charge distribution within them, their net charge content does not change. To the engineer outside, no imbalance would be visible, and no violation of KCL would occur.

Simon Fitch
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  • but if you'll think logically, I am saying that there should be some surface charges on top capacitor because only that can change its potential which was initially considered to be 0 w.r.t infinite and finally let's say its "V" . ofcourse there wouldn't be any current leaving node "A" but charges can redistribute themselves to cancel the net electric field onto that top isolated conductor ,,,,,,I think you don't know much about surface charges and how it sets up in a circuit , I like to think in terms of electric fields and not just by considering voltages at different parts – Arun Bhardwaj May 26 '22 at 05:32
  • @ArunBhardwaj you are right, I don't know much about surface charge – Simon Fitch May 26 '22 at 07:16
  • The ambiguous description of charge building up stems from the multiple definitions of charge that are (unintentionally) applied. I'd say it's correct to say that a capacitor is charged (like a battery is charged), but what's built up in there is _energy_. – Bart van Heukelom Jun 03 '22 at 11:49
  • Your remark about the electron re-entering the battery in person raises an interesting philosophical question. On the one hand, you are "obviously" right. On the other hand, as an indistinguishable particle, an electron has no real identity... but does that mean that your statement is inapplicable (trying to define something undefinable), or that you're explicitly wrong, or that you're still right but it just doesn't matter. – Bart van Heukelom Jun 03 '22 at 11:54
  • By the way (going on a tangent here, hardly related to the question any more), do you know whether electrons in a current exclusively move in one direction? Or could there be "turbulence" that causes some of them to actually go upstream, as long as the net displacement follows the current? If so, that poor electron might find its way home just yet. – Bart van Heukelom Jun 03 '22 at 11:59
  • @BartvanHeukelom Certainly electrons have random movement due to heat and other sources of kinetic energy (which we call noise), which may even be more significant than the linear motion which contributes to current. From the perspective of quantum mechanics, the idea of them actually having a well defined velocity and position at any instant is quite absurd.... – Simon Fitch Jun 05 '22 at 17:10
  • ...Since individual electrons are technically not classical particles until directly observed (measured), it only makes sense to think of electric current as the average motion of huge numbers of them, and many of them can indeed be moving sideways or backwards at any given instant, in spite of a strong electric field accelerating them forwards. – Simon Fitch Jun 05 '22 at 17:10
  • @BartvanHeukelom Regarding the philosophical point, regarding electron identity, that might indeed be true. Take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe All I can say for sure is that KCL and KVL work, because of the sheer quantity of individuals (or perhaps many simultaneous positions of a single electron) and the duration that it takes to make a measurement, but I couldn't ever say who those individuals are, or what they're actually doing at any given instant of time. – Simon Fitch Jun 05 '22 at 17:23
  • @SimonFitch do you believe in surface charge model of elctrical circuits,,,as given in "chabal and sherwood" also discussed in one of "veritasium{a famous youtuber} videos" because it makes sense and is logical,,,,KCL has no explanation,,,I just know that some charges should be present at A because only that can change its potential – Arun Bhardwaj Jun 26 '22 at 16:24
  • surface charges are present on the wires carrying current which makes upt the required electric field inside it ,,only this can drive electrons inside the wires,,,,otherwise how else can the electric field be generated? – Arun Bhardwaj Jun 26 '22 at 16:28
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This is a model, or ideal circuit, that is a useful approximation (in many cases) to a real world circuit.

If we wanted to use a circuit model to take account of the charges on the surfaces of the wires, and on the dangling connection to the top capacitor, then we would add extra capacitor components, and label them Cstray. For typical circuits they would be quite small, often just a few pF, to correctly account for the amount of charge that's there at battery voltages.

If the components shown in the circuit are in the nF or uF region, then you can see that the stray capacitance absorbs so little charge that we can safely ignore it, compared to the charge on the main components.

Not all teachers make this approximation aspect of circuit theory clear, it seems yours hasn't. It's always a problem when teaching a potentially very complicated topic. Do you make the approximation explicit and frighten the noobs, or just present the approximation and leave the deeper thinkers mistrusting what you've said?

Note that even when we have modeled the distributed charges with stray capacitors, we only have a better description of some real physical circuit, not a correct or ideal one. The actual circuit will have conductors that have some physical length to them, and so have inductance, or might even need to be treated as transmission lines or antennae. In the limit, we can always find some operating condition or accuracy level that defeats a circuit model.

Depending on the frequency we want to operate at, and the accuracy we want, the trick is to model the circuit in as few ideal components as possible, and still capture the behaviour that we are interested in. We often sum it up in the aphorism by George Box, All models are wrong, but some are useful.

The easiest way to handle surface charges is to use a fields and charges model, rather than a circuit model. This is ideal for capturing the electric fields as the result of some geometry of voltage sources and wires. While that model is very good for electrostatics, it's not the right tool to attempt to describe circuits with.

Neil_UK
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  • In EMC you usually consider the 'air capacitance to ground' stray as 4pF nominal. It's surprisingly good as a rule of thumb value. But in these case you also consider the capacitor lead inductances and wiring resistances… I guess the OP is at the 'pure electrostatic physics' level – Lorenzo Marcantonio May 24 '22 at 08:10
  • @LorenzoMarcantonio yes I am seeing it from electrostatic point of view,,,also even if I assume for now that the carges on the open capacitor and wires is so small that we can ignore them,,,but even if its small its there right,,so does it mean that the incoming and outgoing current in the battery would not be equal here? so wouldn't it charge the potential difference of the battery? – Arun Bhardwaj May 24 '22 at 08:18
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    @ArunBhardwaj All of what you're saying is correct, at some level. If you want to illustrate it with a circuit model, then just sprinkle around the extra components that will absorb charge in the right places, and restore circuit theory's charge rules. You could even have a stray capacitor to the middle of the battery if you wanted. But we rarely do that because it's just too complicated. If we want to represent surface charges in a detailed way, then we use a fields and charges model, which can represent them much more easily, but then it's far too complicated to represent a 'circuit' easily – Neil_UK May 24 '22 at 08:22
  • @Neil_UK So, would it actually change the potential difference of the battery? – Arun Bhardwaj May 24 '22 at 08:31
  • @ArunBhardwaj Yes and no. A real battery, with finite charge capacity yes, very, very slightly. So little you would not be able to measure it. One model of a small real battery could be a capacitor of kF or MF, how's that for a ratio to your pF of wiring strays? An ideal 'circuit theory' 'voltage source' battery, no. – Neil_UK May 24 '22 at 08:35
  • Technically it will change the potential. But then it will change just because the battery has an internal impedance. You will need an high level experiment to see that however. It's like, you actually push the earth when you jump. Does it matter? 99% of the time no – Lorenzo Marcantonio May 24 '22 at 08:35
  • @LorenzoMarcantonio thanks for that analogy,,,,I think at this high school level I may not have understood the completeness of what u said,,but I got that its called parasitic capacitance and it would be negligible {I still don't the reason} so we can ignore it. However in my textbooks ,electromagnetism is given in very vague way , they don't give any information about surface charges also{ like given in matter and interactions} also my teachers also don't know anything about it ,,,,I wanna know will I get to know more about "how electricity actually travels" when I'll study at higher level? – Arun Bhardwaj May 24 '22 at 08:46
  • or even at higher levels they don't give much information about the truth? because my teachers have bachelors degree in physics and they don't know anything about it,,they know even lesser than me – Arun Bhardwaj May 24 '22 at 08:47
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    @ArunBhardwaj Read the George Box article, this is one of his quotes ` 2.4 Worrying Selectively - Since all models are wrong the scientist must be alert to what is importantly wrong. It is inappropriate to be concerned about mice when there are tigers abroad.` Those stray Cs are mice. However, your teacher has not told you what sort of zoo he is showing you around. – Neil_UK May 24 '22 at 08:47
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    @ArunBhardwaj `will I get to know more about "how electricity actually travels" when I'll study at higher level? ` Yes and no. Yes, you'll get to know more, transmission line theory for RF engineers for instance, and Fermi levels for hole and electron transport in semiconductors (did you know a hole is just as 'real' a particle as an electron?). Everything, no, because even those are approximations. It's all emergent from quantum theory. This is why teachers don't spell out their approximations, but present them as 'truth', as 'lies to children'. – Neil_UK May 24 '22 at 08:53
  • @ArunBhardwaj and don't be too hard on your teacher, he may well be ignorant of both the subtleties of electromagnetic models, and the best way to teach them. He may be parroting back the stuff he learn't just well enough to get a degree, and his interest lies in some other area of physics. It's not ideal for you I know, but you'll have to get into private study earlier in your life than most people. Asking well-directed questions on here can help, as long as you're lucky and the right people are browsing when you ask. – Neil_UK May 24 '22 at 09:03
  • As an aside: here in Italy the university course "Physics II" is *only* about electric and magnetic fields and its one of the most feared exams in the engineering curriculum. Yes, it is that scary, don't worry – Lorenzo Marcantonio May 24 '22 at 14:02
  • @ArunBhardwaj It's like teaching you that planets orbit in circles. It's good enough for most people who don't study outer space. Knowing they're actually ellipses is good enough *for people who design space missions.* The only people who need to know about the orbital perturbations of Mars are scientists who are really interested in getting to the bottom of things. Everyone else just schedules a mid-course correction on their way there. I daresay most professional electronics engineers are happy with components and transmission lines, and don't need to think about surface charges. – user253751 May 24 '22 at 16:13