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Given a clean instrument-level audio signal of reasonable amplitude passing from point A to point B via a TR/unbalanced cable, what effect would replacing that cable with a TR to dual TR cable running from point A to points B and C have on the signal reaching point B? Would it result in a degraded signal, either in terms of amplitude or signal quality? The purpose of the cable is to take a mono signal and duplicate it into two identical mono signals.

Assume both cables are of the same length.

For a more concrete version, assume that A is a guitar and that B and C are unbalanced stereo input jacks on a guitar pedal with these specifications of which I believe the important one is:

  • Input Impedance: 2.2 M ohms
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    no degradation expected if the input impedance is MOhms and the frequency content is the audio range – tobalt Mar 30 '22 at 09:26
  • @tobalt Are you sure - the source is a guitar and they have high impedance, splitting the signal to two inputs would add double the load and some capacitance. – Justme Mar 30 '22 at 09:36
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    @Justme I am sure. The loading only becomes serious maybe below 0.5 MOhm. The capacitance is a much bigger effect..But if you put the y at the end of the cable with only short 20 cm jumper cables after the y, the extra capacitancr is negligible – tobalt Mar 30 '22 at 09:52
  • Is this homework? Its written like homework. – Passerby Mar 30 '22 at 14:44
  • @Passerby nope. I'm setting up a patchbay and I need to split the signal at one point. – Undistraction Mar 30 '22 at 20:57
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    Use a small amplifier BEFORE the splitter. Or, connect it as a Y and you'll get some high frequency attenuation but use your ear to decide if the sound is ok for you and your ear. The loss of high frequency tones will be similar to turning the down the tone knob on the guitar. The change will not be catastrophic, it is just different than the original output. Again, use your ear and decide if it is ok with you or not. Then turn up the tone knob and try again because it may compensate for your high frequency losses. Again, it is your tone, your sound, your ear. You decide. – GT Electronics Mar 31 '22 at 00:54

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For a more concrete version, assume that A is a guitar and that B and C are unbalanced stereo input jacks on a guitar pedal. Input Impedance: 2.2 M ohms

Guitar pick-ups are problematic: -

enter image description here

Image from here.

With an inductance of maybe up to 8 henries, at 10 kHz, that's an impedance of just over 502 kΩ and, this is why we use several MΩ input impedances on guitar pre-amp circuits. We do this to ensure that the high frequencies do not get attenuated: -

enter image description here

So, as you should be able to see we aim to design a guitar pre-amp with an input impedance of at least 1 MΩ and, in many cases on better equipment this is around 10 MΩ. There ain't a guitarist I know of that particularly wants a dull sound to their axe.

But, cable capacitance can also be a problem: -

enter image description here

With a higher input impedance (3 MΩ) there is a distinct peaking effect seen that, to some guitarists is desirable. The above mimics a 3 metre long cable having a capacitance of 50 pF per metre. Personally, as a guitarist, I aim for short cables but, that only works when I'm sat down right next to my mixer and audio capture circuits; it doesn't work on-stage of course!!

I added 100 kΩ series resistance to the pick-up coil to avoid massive and non-realistic peaking. This isn't a cheat because the 1 MΩ pots used in a guitar (for volume and tone) will inevitably have some output resistance of that sort of order.

So, a 2.2 MΩ input impedance is good but, depending on how long the cables are, you might get a less-than-ideal-or-undesirable response.

Andy aka
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    Seriously good answer. – AnalogKid Mar 30 '22 at 12:45
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    The problem when you go too high is that the thing gets so sensitive to induced noise. This was probably less of a problem in 1958 than it is now. So it's a balanced between having lots of highs and noise. If you look here https://www.thetubestore.com/early-fender-guitar-amp-schematics and here https://www.thetubestore.com/recent-fender-amp-schematics you will see that Fender almost always go with 1M. – danmcb Mar 30 '22 at 14:14
  • and, it probably depends a lot on your pickups, but in listening tests I did when building a preamp, I really couldn't hear any noticeable difference between 470k and 1M. Of course, others may hear things I can't. – danmcb Mar 30 '22 at 14:16
  • @danmcb some of it will be down to playing style, wanted plectrum noise and string scraping effects. If you look at my final graph, the maximum amplitude difference (if you equalized the gains at low frequency) would be about 3 or 4 dB in a range around 3 kHz to 6 kHz. – Andy aka Mar 30 '22 at 15:47
  • sure. You can use your cable as a form of EQ if you want. However, I didn't see too many amps, even tube ones, with input R > 1M. They exist, probably, but it isn't common and there are fairly good reasons for that. – danmcb Mar 30 '22 at 17:33
  • There are several guitar effects schematics on line that have 1 Meg or greater input impedance. Tubes pah LOL. Give me a VST effect and cubase any day. – Andy aka Mar 30 '22 at 18:30
  • yes, I'm using one of the little Y*****a modelling amps for recording, and I like it a lot. I've no yen for a big heavy tube amp. I mention Fender tube schemas because of your "in many cases on better equipment this is around 10 MΩ". Actually if you wanted to do this right, a hi-Z preamp in the jack at the guitar is the way to go, and I have such a design, batteryless. But guitarists are a conservative lot and I can't be bothered. – danmcb Apr 04 '22 at 07:22
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Provided that the source impedance is low (should typically be less than 100 ohms) and the destination impedances are high (typically > 10k), no problem.

To be precise, check the three impedances, calculate the effective detination impedance (parallel equivalent of the two destinations). Rule of thumb is that the parallel imepdance should be greater than 10x the source.

If you are lower than this, you typically lose a bit of amplitude, but no big problem. In extreme cases you might cause the source amplifier to start clipping or do other odd things.

This applies to the situation when the source has already been through a preamp, and we are talking about the output impedance of the preamp. You cannot generally split something like a dynamic microphone or an electric guitar directly. The results will not be good.

danmcb
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  • I agree, generally a high impedance source such as guitar in this case is not recommended to split it into two inputs. – Justme Mar 30 '22 at 09:39
  • @justme that's what preamps are for - what's sometimes not clear to beginners is that their job is impedance conversion more than voltage amplification. – danmcb Mar 30 '22 at 09:43
  • @danmcb so if the input impedance of the pedal is 2 M ohms, then (2*2)/(2+2) gives an effective destination impedance of 1 M ohms which is 100 times the input impedance? That would seem to be fine and something you say is 'no problem', but then you say 'You cannot generally split something like a dynamic microphone or an electric guitar directly. The results will not be good.' which seems to contradict this. – Undistraction Mar 30 '22 at 10:46
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    It might work. In general it isn't recommended, but you can try it of course. When the impedances are that high, and only two pedals, it might be OK. The only way to know for sure is to try. As @justme pointed out below, there can also be other factors, like capacitance, noise, etc. But try if you want to know for sure. – danmcb Mar 30 '22 at 10:49
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The guitar will see double the load, as two inputs are used, and additional cabling will add capacitive load. Both inputs will then receive identical signal which has smaller amplitude and somewhat different frequency characteristics, because both the load resistance has gone down to half, but capacitance also up by few percent.

So, yes, it will degrade amplitude and quality. But how much it will affect? Well, with the provided info, it's all hand-waving, because for that we would need to know cable capacitance and guitar source impedance.

The effect may also be completely unnoticeable.

Justme
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