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When feeding an RF signal to a coaxial transmission line, when do you have to take into consideration the capacitance of the cable? I am working with a 36 MHz signal. The total cable length is ~3 ft (RG316 with SMA connectors).

The source and load impedances are not equal. The source impedance is -130\$j \Omega\$ and the load impedance is 1 k\$\Omega\$.

I want to make sure I am calculating the transfer function correctly.

JYelton
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    Should see comparison between "lumped" and "transmission line" models at this post https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/498630/relation-between-transmission-line-and-circuit-impedance/597712#597712 – Antonio51 Jan 06 '22 at 20:36
  • "36 MHz signal" meaning what? Fundamental frequency? Highest Fourier coefficient? Something else? The highest frequency of the signal determines if you need to consider that coax a transmission line or not. – user1850479 Jan 06 '22 at 20:44
  • Did you mix up source and load impedances in your text? Or is the enormous attenuation intentional? – tobalt Jan 06 '22 at 21:14
  • Someone erroneously edited my text. Source impedance is purely reactive ( -130j Ohms) where j is the imaginary unit. and the load impedance is purely real (1 kOhms) @JYelton – D. Zambrano Jan 06 '22 at 21:19
  • I interpreted it as a typo (j is adjacent to k); apologies. I will revert it. – JYelton Jan 06 '22 at 22:24
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    It would be best to express the imaginary component as -j130. This is standard engineering notation. – Chu Jan 07 '22 at 16:49

4 Answers4

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50 ohm air spaced cable has a capacitance of 66.7pF/m, dielectric spaced cables with velocity factors around 0.66 have around 100pF/m. This is a useful number, every time you connect two items together in the lab with a typical 1m coax cable, at low frequencies it is like adding 100pF across the signal. A 2m cable is like 200pF.

\$C=\frac{1}{Z_0 v}\$ where \$v=\frac{c}{\sqrt{\epsilon_r}}\$ is the velocity of propagation

As your 1m cable is around 20% of a wavelength at 36MHz you should really treat it as a transmission line.

Just looking at the capacitance, at low frequencies it looks like about 100pF, which at 36MHz has a reactance of about 44ohms. It is clearly going to influence your circuit where your impedance is around 1k.

Assuming that you are after the simple voltage transfer function from a source with 130k impedance to the 1k load, with no cable you have -42.3dB. Treating the cable as a simple 100pF shunt gives -69.4dB, treating it as a 5ns length of 50 ohm cable gives -67.4dB (from a simple SPICE sim).

Assuming that you are after the simple voltage transfer function from a source with -130j impedance (= 34pF cap at 36MHz) to the 1k load, with no cable you have -0.1dB. Treating the cable as a simple 100pF shunt gives -11.9dB, treating it as a 5ns length of 50 ohm cable gives -8.9dB (from a simple SPICE sim). Note that this can change quite dramatically with the length of the cable, use a 2m cable and you get -2.8dB, increasing your signal by over 6dB.

Tesla23
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  • I am well aware that it will influence my circuit. My question is how? – D. Zambrano Jan 06 '22 at 21:23
  • Your question was when, not how, but I have just posted how. – Tesla23 Jan 06 '22 at 21:58
  • Thanks @Tesla23. The source impedance is actually -130j Ohm (purely reactive). Someone accidentally changed it, but revert it back. The load is indeed 1000 Ohms (purely resistive). – D. Zambrano Jan 06 '22 at 22:41
  • Hey @Tesla23. One last question: If I terminate it with 50 Ohms instead of 1000 Ohms, will the cable length matter? If it doesn't matter, why is this? The capacitance per unit length is still the same, right? – D. Zambrano Jan 07 '22 at 03:54
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    If the cable is terminated in 50 ohms, the input impedance of the cable is 50 ohms, you don't see any capacitance or inductance of the cable. The only effect of the cable is the delay, and a small loss. As to 'why is this?', this is what courses on transmission lines are about! – Tesla23 Jan 07 '22 at 06:12
  • Got it! Thanks again @Tesla23! – D. Zambrano Jan 07 '22 at 23:59
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An RG316 cable has a transmission velocity at 0.69 times the speed of light (ref) which makes the cable length of 3 feet well over 0.1 times the wavelength.

Treating the cable capacitance as a lumped capacitance probably won't be too accurate, and it's better to treat the cable with a more accurate model - distributed inductance and capacitance which make for a transmission line with a particular impedance (probably 50 ohms). This analysis can be done using a smith chart and can be used to yield the impedance that the source sees when looking at the cable and all of its length, plus the load attached at the far end.

nanofarad
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  • Thanks for the response! Can do a spice model perhaps? Any thoughts as to how to model this? I’m not too acquainted with the smith chart… – D. Zambrano Jan 06 '22 at 20:18
  • @D.Zambrano I'm not certain whether SPICE will handle transmission lines, although spectre can. I entered the scenario into https://www.will-kelsey.com/smith_chart/ and got a result that the cable + load looks like a pretty poor match for the output impedance of your source. – nanofarad Jan 06 '22 at 20:21
  • Thanks for the response @nanofarad – D. Zambrano Jan 06 '22 at 21:20
  • microcap v12 works with lines (lossy or not) and it is free ... http://www.spectrum-soft.com/download/download.shtm – Antonio51 Jan 07 '22 at 11:44
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Cable capacitance is always present. The following link characterizes the capacitance of RG316 coaxial cable as 32 pF/m. It lists the frequency response as DC to 3 GHz.

https://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG316-DS.pdf

The frequency response of SMA connectors is listed at the following link as 18 GHz.

https://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produkte_pb/produktinnovationen/coaxconnectors.php

Operating at 36 MHz is well within the operating ranges of your cabling components.

The source and load impedances (in particular, the mismatch) will limit the frequency response of your system. Your source impedance doesn't appear to be realistic.

HypeInst
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If one would see the different behavior for "distributed" or "lumped" (1 section) parameters, here are two pictures for "amplitude" and "phase". Unless "errors" are always possible.

The number of the section is here 1, so the same "behavior" (line or lumped) is not "respected". More sections are thus needed. See results @36MHz.

enter image description here

enter image description here

Antonio51
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