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Background

Let's say I have a device. I can't give details, but, like many heat-producing devices, it's intended to be used for a limited period of time, but if left on indefinitely can be very dangerous. Let's also assume that:

  • The device needs mains power.
  • The device needs to be safe (at least so far as turning itself off) for unattended use.
  • Using a mechanical timer is not an option. (Maybe as a backup, but not as the primary timer.)

I really want some sort of fail-safe timing mechanism. That rules out most traditional digital timers, and even some mechanical timers. What I'm thinking I'd like to do is use a capacitor to power some sort of NO-relay in a way that makes it as close to impossible as I can manage for the power to stay connected for longer than some period of time. (Basically, using an RC circuit as the timer; the idea being to charge the cap(s), physically disconnect the power supply from the RC circuit, and then drive the relays off the stored charge.)

Question

I'm somewhat familiar with solenoid relays, which would be good due to physically interrupting the circuit; however, IIUC there is some possibility these can weld shut. I'm less familiar with the failure modes of solid-state relays.

Is there a device that can run off of very low current that can switch at least 100 W that could be suitable for such an application? Am I being overly paranoid about using a solenoid relay?

Notes

  • By "low current"... generally, the lower the better, but let's say ~1 W or less. ~10-100 mW would be better, but 1 mW is probably overkill.
  • Hazard level: one or a few very angry (or deceased) people, but well short or Fukushima.
  • I don't have specific regulatory requirements, but I'm also not inclined to cut corners.
  • This is for a personal/DIY project (or I probably wouldn't need to ask here); I don't have a huge budget to be contracting support agencies or purchasing very expensive components. (Note: $1k is "very expensive", $10 isn't.)
  • I don't need precise timing. ±50% would be a bit excessive, but ±25% would be very acceptable, and ±1% would be bordering on overkill. Initial operation time is "a few minutes", though eventually I may want to be able to go up to ~8-12 hours.
  • I don't expect to be dealing with anything higher than US mains (~120V), and probably everything will be running DC.
Matthew
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  • Hi-Rel relays are vacuum sealed and expensive. Consult with Omron site for life support switches. In general DC relays can be lower power in the coil. Relays <2A are all gold plated to prevent oxide on the contacts. But reactive loads demand significant contact current derating. C or L. – Tony Stewart EE75 Mar 29 '21 at 22:18
  • Your application is a mystery, as well the answer would be. Clarify what you need. – Marko Buršič Mar 29 '21 at 22:20
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    "Fail safe" has meanings which vary from "it would be nice if it switched off when power was removed" to "safety critical system with turn-off guaranteed by redundant circuits approved to ISO Standard XXXX". Your question gives little clue as to where on this scale you need to be. The fail-safe timer adds another level of complexity which will be difficult to solve. – Transistor Mar 29 '21 at 22:24
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    Try using 2 relays with coils wired in parallel and with normally open contacts wired in series. The odds of welding together would be reduced. – John Canon Mar 30 '21 at 01:24
  • You should go for a redundant configuration. Depending on your standards you need to calculate the performance level or SIL required and then work from it. Do a full risk analysis, the rest will follow. EDIT: in short, the issue is a finger burn, some kind of arson or a fukushima level meltdown? – Lorenzo Marcantonio Mar 30 '21 at 06:51
  • Matthew, if you are truly interested in absolute safety guarantees then you must use physics and design accordingly. For example, Hoffmann, Dyson, and Teller designed a nuclear reactor that was ***intrinsically safe***. You couldn't even ***intentionally*** make it fail, catastrophically. Look up **TRIGA** and *General Atomics*. It was demonstrated by testing an intentional disaster. The point here is that if you want something absolutely safe, you don't engineer systems around it. You use physics. Nature is the most consistent thing in the universe. You can count upon it. – jonk Mar 30 '21 at 07:02

2 Answers2

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Fail safes usually include redundant devices configured properly. For instance if you absolutely have to shut off something, this would be two switches in series, so that if one failed to open, the other could have a chance.

Welding shut can happen if a relay is used outside its specification. For AC applications there are some circuits that only open the relays when the current goes through zero, to reduce the chance of arcs. (zero crossing switching). 100 W really is low power though, so the chances of things like this happening with properly made circuits is really low. There is also the practice of arc-suppression circuits, which is a RC circuit connected to the relay contacts.

If you want very low current, then I would not use a mechanical relay. triac circuits come to mind. Or MOSFETs for lowest current requirement of the controlling circuit. I don't really get why you want to save on the milli-amps when you're using several amps on the heater though... 100W can for example be 8.33 A @ 12 V .. Not too much for a big mosfet with a heat-sink.

Simplest route is a relay. Use two in series if you're concerned about reliability. look up the proper way to shunt back-emf and how to have low 'keep-on' currents. NOW most relays are rated at a certain number of operations. from a few thousand to hundreds of thousands. So this might be an issue if you will be switching at a high rate, or over many years.

Use a zero-crossing detector to gate the switching signal (just the simple rectifier based circuit) if on AC.

Most reliable timing circuit that will always 'go low' is of course just a RC timing constant. It will not be accurate, but it will never fail to reach a value that is logical 0. Just to stay super safe, there should be a logical OR between TWO RC timing circuits ;) or a majority voter between three RC timing circuits ;) ;) ;) There is quite many things you can do to get theoretically better 'safety'.

Of course it is all up to you how big safety factor you need. But if lives are at stake, you really should be looking for people who did this before, and talk to them.

user55924
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  • "I don't really get why you want to save on the milli-amps when..." I think you missed my intent. The idea is to charge the (super?)caps and then *completely remove them from the power supply*. I could also possibly use a battery, but I'd rather not because that adds a *lot* of extra complexity and other possible issues. IOW... IIUC, an RC timing circuit is *exactly* what I'm looking to use. The question, then, is how I can most directly connect that to switch a load, the goal being to cut out failure modes due to e.g. a logic circuit failing. (How reliable are MOSFETs?) – Matthew Mar 30 '21 at 12:46
  • Also, the cost of multiple RC circuits might be... significant. Realistically, what is the likelihood of one failing? (How *can* it, physically?) What I might do, though, is use two RC's with four relays, each RC driving two relays in parallel, all four switching the device in series... that way if *any* relay opens, the device turns off. – Matthew Mar 30 '21 at 13:25
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Your question is definitely missing some details. Like what you consider to be "very low current".

When it comes to designing safety circuitry, then the failure modes are important. But this is the failure modes of all components and not just the final effector.

So you've hypothesised that you will have a capacitor which will charge up over time and result in the turn off of the device. Consider your 'computation' elements... a resistor, and a capacitor. What are the common failure modes of these devices. Hint: resistors typically fail to 'open', and capacitors typically fail to a 0 capacitance state, but if exposed to over-voltage can fail to a 'short'. We've just looked at two of your proposed timer devices, and both fail in a manner that you could consider to be 'dangerous'. Hence you may want to consider alternatives.

There are organisations (like Exida etc) that specialise in performing such Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (FMEA). They also have available some documentation which can be useful in performing your own FMEAs.

A solid-state relay will typically just be a combination of an Opto-Triac, and a Triac (if using a low enough output current it may just be an Opto-Triac). Triacs have a bit of a propensity to self trigger. So they would generally not be recommended as a safe control device. The means to reduce the self-triggering are appropriate snubber designs (which are impacted by common failure modes of resistors and capacitors), and Triac design. Most SSRs will not advertise what Triacs they use, hence you will not be able to perform a sufficiently low level FMEA to determine if you can use these or not.

My suggestion is to use several layers of protection.

  1. Have some basic means of turning the device off after perhaps a user configurable time (I assume this is part of normal functionality).
  2. Have some additional means of turning the device off after some upper limit (the safety time)
  3. Have some means of turning the device off if it gets too hot.

The third one is particularly important.

It would also be worth investigating other similar devices for what kind of safety features they provide. If your device can be oriented in ways that might increase the risk of heating, then perhaps you could detect them and shut the system down. This is what portable heaters etc generally have (a tip sensor, so if they fall over they turn off).

To get back around to your end control device. If you are switching AC voltages, then relays that are rated to switch the highest expected (fault) current plus some margin is the general 'rule'. So if you have a 5A fuse, then your relay should be rated at something like 7.5A.. this ensures that even if the fuse is still somewhat within its thermal curve, your relay can safely open. If you are switching DC voltage only, then it becomes easier to consider MOSFETs and less mechanical devices (sure you can do this for AC also.. but it's typically not worth the pain).

BevanWeiss
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  • "two of your proposed timer devices [...] both fail in a manner that you could consider to be 'dangerous'." I'm confused; how is this true? IIUC, both failures will result in the timing circuit failing to an open state (which is, of course, the point). A solenoid NO-relay will tend to fail open/safe, but they could weld or mechanically get stuck. IIUC, triacs OTOH are more likely to fail closed (dangerous)? – Matthew Mar 30 '21 at 13:17
  • If you're charging the capacitor to account for 'running time', an open circuit resistor will not charge the capacitor (resulting in 0 runtime indicated, regardless of how long it had run for). A similar situation applies for a short circuited capacitor, it will never hold charge, and hence not accumulate runtime. – BevanWeiss Mar 30 '21 at 23:56
  • Some common 'safety devices' involving timing circuits actually use bimetallic strips. This is typically considered as an adequate failsafe type of circuit (i.e. it's used in old-school burner management systems). It doesn't hit your desired aspect of low power usage however. – BevanWeiss Mar 30 '21 at 23:58
  • In regards to Solenoid Relay (NO contact) vs Triac. Yes, if just looking at the relay, it has better failure modes than a triac. Of course if you are driving a relay with a triac you've taken away most of your safe characteristics. So you need to consider the whole chain... perhaps you want to be driving both a high-side and a low-side transistor with independent signals... and using another contact on the relay positively guided to your existing contact... and detecting the feedback state of the relay. – BevanWeiss Mar 31 '21 at 00:03
  • Uh... I think your idea of my circuit is backwards. I'm charging the cap ahead of time to *power* the relay; hence the need for low power. When the cap runs out (or low), the relay stops getting power and everything shuts down. I have no idea where all these other triacs/transistors are coming from. – Matthew Mar 31 '21 at 01:51