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I want to power a three-phase 5hp well pump with a VFD. I want the VFD both to serve as a soft start, and to allow variable speed operation of the motor.

Two different pump salesmen have told me that running a VFD off a generator might hurt the VFD. Is this so? And if so, what is the mechanism by which generator power might hurt a VFD, but grid power does not?

EDIT: If the problem is variation in the generator's frequency or voltage, to what extent can that be mitigated by using an inverter-generator?

Diogenes Creosote
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  • I very much doubt you will hurt the VFD. But I also will not be reimbursing you if you do. LOL. My pool pump runs on VFD (only 1HP). It runs find on our standby generator, but that is an 8kW standby generator running our whole house. So the 1000W going into the VFD is only a small part of the load. I have used small VFD's for dynomometers also. They seem to be pretty robust. (I am talking 1-5 HP only). – user57037 Mar 24 '21 at 05:21
  • Unfortunately I need 5HP for the quantity of water I'm pumping. Since I posted this, I've purchased a 10HP Toshiba VFD which output more than 5HP if fed with single phase power. Is it hopeless to run this thing off a 6500W Honda generator? – Diogenes Creosote Mar 25 '21 at 16:42
  • I don't think it will run at full speed. Not enough power. But I would try it and see what happens. I personally don't think you will break anything. Just be ready hit the stop button on the VFD if anything should go wrong. If it is possible, I would try to get the VFD running with utility power first, just to remove one variable. Once it is running the way you want, then try the generator. My 5 HP single phase well pump uses 28 Amps at 240V once it is up and running. I don't know what the power factor is. But that would be too much for a 6500 W generator, even ignoring startup surge. – user57037 Mar 25 '21 at 16:54
  • With the VFD, there is no startup surge. Assuming you program it correctly it can spin up slowly. So you just need to limit the top speed of the motor to something that the generator can supply without being overloaded. Then verify that the water flow rate is acceptable. If the flow rate requirement can only be met by running full speed, then you will need a bigger generator for sure, just from a power perspective, and ignoring stability, etc. – user57037 Mar 25 '21 at 16:56
  • Since my original comments I have read that starting a well pump with a slow start is likely to burn out the motor or pump for some reason I don't fully understand. So anyone reading this should look into that. – user57037 Jan 29 '23 at 08:51

4 Answers4

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Two different pump salesmen have told me that running a VFD off a generator might hurt the VFD.

It's not that simple. But I can understand why the saleman says it. It often causes problems because the VFD is too big for the generator or is misconfigured, or the only load on the generator.
This can cause severe harmonics, or instability (governor and voltage regulator) if the VFD is not running simple UF mode.

Sometimes the VFD caps blow up. Sometimes it errors mains overvoltage/undervoltage. Sometimes other components blow up. Potential for damage is high.

So, when you do this, make sure you pay attention to:

  • Sizing. Try to get the generator 2 times larger that the total VFD load. This is a simple rule of thumb, more specific calculations are possible taking the subtransient reactance into account. Talk to your generator supplier. Ask them for numbers.
  • Drive switching frequency. As high as possible considering drive derating.
  • Drive control algorithm. Simple V/F mode, no vector control algoritms.
  • Drive ramp times. No sudden speed changes, the engine is slow and can't give you instant kilowatts.
  • Use a braking resistor for braking, not 4-quadrant operation.

There is no cost effective filtering available to correct for a harmonics problem here. That's why the salesman just says you can't, because it could become an expensive job. Lot's of pointing fingers. I've seen it many times.
The frequencies you want to filter are 3rd to 20th harmonics, where normal mains filters work beyond the 200th harmonic.

I wouldn't even consider using a VFD on an inverter generator. Those are so small, recipe for disaster.

Jeroen3
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This really depends on the VFD and generator combination. If the VFD can handle variable input voltage and frequency then I would say it can run on a generator. If the input voltage requirements are tight, the maybe it can't. The problem is that, in general, generators are not very stable in either voltage or frequency. This is of course dependent on the generator and load. Under varying load conditions the generator may under or over-voltage your VFD input and it may produce 70 Hz for short periods or 40 Hz depending on how the load varies. A more specific answer could be given with information about the specific equipment you are working with.

ScienceGeyser
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    The two properties the generator needs specifically are good speed regulation to control output frequency and regulated field coils to control output voltage. If the VFD is built in such a way that it pulls non-line frequency current surges off the supply line that could cause problems with smaller generators as well. – K H Mar 11 '21 at 06:34
  • I updated the question to ask if it helps to use an inverter-generator – Diogenes Creosote Mar 11 '21 at 06:40
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    @AndrewCone I don't think it would help to add yet another frequency sensitive feedback control system to the mix. – ScienceGeyser Mar 11 '21 at 08:09
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The problem is the harmonics produced by the VFD itself. And the problem will be a mutual adverse to both VFD and generator operations.

In fact, VFD works on chopping the waveform which produces harmonics and these harmonics affect the generator waveform which is not the case for the grid supposed to have infinite inertia.

Harmonics may also affect sensitive electronic devices used also to control the generator like the AVR regulating its voltage for instance which may create instability in the system operation.

Paul Ghobril
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  • To what extent does it help to use a larger generator? I'm thinking the bigger the windings in the generator, and the more heavy-duty the AVR, the more it should be able to absorb the harmonics. Is this so? – Diogenes Creosote Mar 11 '21 at 06:52
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The problems with AVRs and non-linear loads was very real, 25 years ago. But MOST generator mfrs have addressed and fixed those issue, usually with filtering on the voltage sensing for the AVR, so this has not been a problem for decades. Yet, the perception remains in the industry, because a LOT of people got burned by these issues in the 80s and 90s and generator salesmen do not want to get burned again, so they just warn everyone.. There are however two caveats to that:

  1. The more recent advent of "inverter" generators may have screwed that up again, because if you use an inverter generator, you are feeding an converter with an inverter, and the potential problems are as yet unaddressed as far as I know, so yes, heed the advice to not try that.
  2. New Active Front End (AFE) VFDs are being released for "Low Harmonics" and some designs have issues with the higher impedance of a generator compared to a utility source.
JRaef
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  • My two options for feeding the VFD are a 6,500 watt rated Honda generator with no inverter, and an equivalent Honda generator with an inverter rated for 7,000 watts. I'm guessing it would be better to use the 6,500, yes? – Diogenes Creosote Mar 25 '21 at 16:38