2

I am trying to solve the 2013 paper set by ISRO for electrical engineers. I was hoping to get some clues on how to approach this problem - No 22. random signals which have gaussian distributions will not be periodic and I can't understand what they mean by phase difference between the two signals.

Question No 22

If x and y are two random signals with zero mean Gaussian distribution having identical standard deviation, the phase angle between them is

a) Zero mean Gaussian distributed

b) Uniform between \$-\pi\$ and \$\pi\$

c) Uniform between \$\frac{-\pi}{2}\$ and \$\frac{\pi}{2}\$

d) Non zero mean Gaussian distributed

q22

My gut feeling tells me that since both signals are zero mean, it's more likely to spend time at 0 (depending on the standard deviation), so a phase difference of 0 is more likely. So I can rule out Uniform distribution and a non zero gaussian distribution. So I intuit that the answer is (A)

I found a paper which talks on this topic, but it went right above my head. I was hoping for an explanation of what the question is asking and what the answer is and why?

Aditya P
  • 337
  • 2
  • 16
  • Does this have context? Because as asked, \$x\$ and \$y\$ are real-valued random variables – and I couldn't say what the angle of e.g. -0.2 or +1.8 would be, so how would these signals have a phase angle *between* them? On the other hand, if \$x,y\$ are \$x,y\sim\mathcal{CN}(0,\sigma^2)\$ then we still need to talk about correlation. – Marcus Müller Mar 08 '19 at 15:33
  • Why do you think that phase difference would be centred on zero, or centred anywhere for that matter? – Chu Mar 08 '19 at 15:50
  • (also, it's pretty uncommon to denote random variables with small letters – please don't adopt this notation! When someone talks about the RV "signal \$X\$" they'd usually use the capital \$X\$, so that they can use the small letter to denote things like "The probability of the signal being smaller than or equal to a value \$x\$" as \$P(X\le x)= F_X(x)\$. I must admit this Indian test is a disaster all over and I hence lose respect for the educational system producing it.) – Marcus Müller Mar 08 '19 at 15:54
  • Hint: What is the distribution of the phase of a Gaussian random variable relative to an arbitrary reference signal? – The Photon Mar 08 '19 at 15:59
  • @MarcusMüller Sorry no context. I am solving previous year question papers since I want to join this organisation. I got their question papers off their website. I thought that x and y were random processes since signals would be functions of time. I also agree with you, I can't think of what they mean by __phase__ here. – Aditya P Mar 08 '19 at 17:59
  • @Chu I thought of the signal as a [random Gaussian process](https://i.stack.imgur.com/SXIDh.png) and smaller the standard deviation the more it would spend time near the mean (zero). I thought of phase as the difference between their values at any instant of time. It was just a wild stab at the question. I did not want to just put the question out there without at least trying something. – Aditya P Mar 08 '19 at 18:03
  • @MarcusMüller I agree notation is very important. Unless we maintain standards we make communication just that much difficult. I will make sure to practice using the right notation if/when I set question papers in the future. For now I have to understand what they mean in order survive in this system. By joining them I can hope to change them from the inside. – Aditya P Mar 08 '19 at 18:09
  • Let these be narrow-band-filtered processes, and there now is PHASE. – analogsystemsrf Mar 09 '19 at 04:58
  • @analogsystemsrf but if these are two narrowband PSD processes, then the phase can't be described by any of these answers without knowing anything about their correlation properties – and even if we assume what's most likely, uncorrelated processes, then we'd need to assume the two filter passbands would be disjunct, and there's a whole bag of math swooping down on us that moment. With a bit of luck, we'd end up with an *ensemble expectation* of uniformly distributed phases; but that model doesn't have ergodicity, so meeeeeh. – Marcus Müller Mar 09 '19 at 12:13

3 Answers3

3

$$\mathcal{X_1}=\mathcal{N}(0,\sigma^2)$$ $$\mathcal{X_2}=\mathcal{N}(0,\sigma^2)$$ $$\theta=\arctan(\mathcal{X_1},\mathcal{X_2})$$

Since arctan ranges from \$-\frac{\pi}{2}\$ to \$-\frac{\pi}{2}\$

there can only be one answer and that is c, you could do the math but the answer is c

These questions are designed to be tricky, simple relationships can save you time if you look at the question as a whole. In this case you need to know what the output of arctan is.

Voltage Spike
  • 75,799
  • 36
  • 80
  • 208
  • 4
    Although this seems to be the correct answer, it is relying on an invalid assumption. The phase between two random signals is not well-defined. The only definition that would make sense would be using the correlation, but that would just give you delay not phase. And, if the signals are white, it will be zero. The mere idea of “phase” doesn’t make sense in this context. – Edgar Brown Mar 08 '19 at 16:19
  • 4
    @EdgarBrown exactly why I posted my answer. I still think this answer is what the examiners had in mind. Look at the other questions OP asked for a cabinet of horrors of sloppily formulated questions, wrong unit capitalization and other crimes against engineerity. – Marcus Müller Mar 08 '19 at 16:20
  • If I pick two different numbers that are normally distributed, there is a good chance that they will not be the same, so there would exist some phase between them. The question is bonkers for sure, but that's my interpretation of it. – Voltage Spike Mar 08 '19 at 16:26
  • @laptop2d "good chance they'll not be the same": The probability of them being the same is literally 0 :) And as said, your interpretation is what I agree the examiners had in their bonkers minds. (Love how that rolls of the tongue – bonkers.) – Marcus Müller Mar 08 '19 at 16:53
2

So, let's dig into this.

The question is ambigously asked.

1. Real-Valued interpretation

If the question is meant to read

\$x, y\sim \mathcal N(0,\sigma^2)\$: what is the distribution of \$A= \lvert\angle x-\angle y\rvert\$?

then the answer would be: since \$\angle x = 0 \, \forall x \in\mathbb R\$ (and the same for \$y\$), \$ a = \lvert\angle x-\angle y\rvert = \lvert0-0\rvert = 0\implies f_A(a) = \delta(a)\$.

The only choice that would be correct here would be "a)"; because the Dirac delta is the marginal case of the zero-mean normal distribution with zero variance.

2. Complex-value interpretation

I'm swinging towards this interpretation, because it makes a little more sense.

Likely, however, the question is meant to read

\$x, y\sim \mathcal{CN}(0,\sigma^2)\$: what is the distribution of \$A= \lvert\angle x-\angle y\rvert\$?

(which contradicts the literal text; when you say "normally distributed", you mean the real \$\mathcal N\$, not the circularly complex \$\mathcal {CN}\$)

You'd then realize that the phase of a circularly complex normal variable is uniform between \$0\$ and \$2\pi\$ or between \$-\pi\$ and \$\pi\$ (or, however you define your range of valid angles). It doesn't really matter; all it does in the end translate the PDF.

I'll pick \$\angle x,\angle y\sim \mathcal U(-\pi,\pi)\$ because it allows the PDF to be symmetric, which will be useful when we calculate the following:

\begin{align} \tilde A &= \angle X - \angle Y& \tilde Y = -Y\\ &= \angle X + \angle\tilde Y\\ \implies\\ f_A(a) &= f_{\angle X} * f_{\angle\tilde Y}&*\text{ being the convolution}\\ &= f_{\angle X} * f_{\angle Y} & \text{due to symmetry of Y's PDF}\\ &= \text{rect}(\frac{u}{2\pi})*\text{rect}(\frac{u}{2\pi}) & \text{convolution of two $2\pi$ wide zero-centered rectangles}\\ \end{align}

That's a triangular distribution. If you look at \$f_{\lvert A \rvert}\$, it becomes a linear downslope. None of the options allow a triangular distribution.

3. Interpration as coordinates of point in plane

If the question is meant to read

\$x, y\sim \mathcal N(0,\sigma^2)\$: what is the distribution of \$A=\angle (x,y)\$?

You'd realize that \$(x,y)\sim\mathcal {CN}(0, \frac{\sigma^2}2)\$, and all these zero-mean circularly complex normally distributed variables have uniform phase over a range of \$2\pi$. That'd imply b) is right.

Neil_UK
  • 158,152
  • 3
  • 173
  • 387
Marcus Müller
  • 88,280
  • 5
  • 131
  • 237
2

For two sinusoids at the same frequency, but otherwise uncorrelated, the phase difference is in the range \$-\pi \le\ \phi \lt\ \pi\$, and all phase differences in that range are equally probable. Now apply this to the Fourier transforms of the two uncorrelated Gaussian signals and you get a uniform distribution in the range \$-\pi \le\ \phi \lt\ \pi\$

Chu
  • 7,485
  • 2
  • 14
  • 16
  • I understand the first part of your answer. But why do you take Fourier transform of the Gaussian signals? Since it's random signals, you mean Gaussian noise - random process right? What do you think the phase here means? – Aditya P Mar 09 '19 at 03:29
  • For example, take the DFT's of both Gaussian signals. Then at the frequency, \$f\$ [Hz], there will be sinusoids, say: \$ V_1 sin(2 \pi ft +\phi _1)\$ and \$ V_2 sin(2 \pi ft +\phi _2)\$. \$V\$ will be Gaussian, \$\phi\$ will be uniformly distributed. – Chu Mar 09 '19 at 18:49