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We are electrically inducing heart attacks in fruit flies to test the effects of various treatments on survival. We are shooting for roughly a 50% survival recovery rate in our control group.

I work with a lab that is studying cardiac function in insects. We have been inducing cardiac arrest using electrodes applied to the outside of the fruit fly. This has a lot of problems to it, attachment of the electrodes is labor intensive, the carapace is a pretty good electrical insulator , Etc

I'm new to the lab and was asked to look over the situation to see if I had any ideas on how they could improve fly handling and throughput. I got the idea of maybe putting the Flies inside a solenoid and inducing Eddy currents to shock them.

I have very limited experience in building electronic devices though I have a decent undergraduate level understanding of physics including electromagnetism.

I don't really know where to start here. I thought of just looking for solenoids online or maybe just an automotive coil. Putting the fruit fly inside a little plastic tube. Sticking it in the core of the coil after the coil is already running current from a car battery. And then just suddenly disconnecting the terminals of the battery and letting the magnetic-field collapse to see what happens to the fruit fly.

I would consider it a victory at this point if I could just show that we could get the fruit fly to die without actually cooking it. We can systematically lower the the magnetic field intensity that we collapse using lower voltages through the coil until we get what our Target is, a shock level that creates about a 50% survival rate.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to approach this or even criticism regarding whether or not it would work. I'm in electronics hobbyist but haven't really done that much period just some basic stuff.


This is an example of the physical principle I am talking about, though out problem is simpler since we want a single disruptive shock and have no portability issues.

https://www.google.com/patents/US5170784

Dave Tweed
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user146252
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    Not sure about induction-coupling to fruit flies, but if you could generate a pulse of RF in a frequency range where the average body-length of a fruit fly was near 1/2 wavelength, you could zap them with RF induced voltage. I've personally been toying with designs (haven't built any prototypes yet...still working out the tracking part) for shooting mosquitoes out of the air using a parabolic-reflector RF setup at about 18Ghz. The problem becomes generating the ultra-high frequency for such applications though...especially with a fruit fly's length being several times shorter yet. :S – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 18:26
  • I think I have a somewhat different problem than you. Let me explain in the next comment. – user146252 Apr 13 '17 at 18:28
  • After a quick lookup & some calculations, you could induce lethal, targeted electrical currents in the body of a fruit-fly at around 60GHz. Not sure what equipment you guys have access to, but if you could generate that frequency at even a fer milliwatts, you could easily build a "fruit fly microwave" by placing the flies in a reflective chamber & piping in the RF with them. – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 18:31
  • I don't think I need to actually couple to the antenna body length. I just need to to send a single wave of magnetic flux through the fly, fast enough that a strong eddy current is induced inside the fly, inside the coil. You have to cook your mosquitos in an open environment where you need a much more selective frequency so you don't just dump energy into the environment. – user146252 Apr 13 '17 at 18:32
  • I understand that our "killing scenarios" are quite different, as I'm trying to kill "free" subjects, and yours are already contained. However, the killing *mechanism* (electrical shock without attaching electrodes) is the same...so using similar methods for achieving that could still be useful. – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 18:33
  • I was merely suggesting the use of RF as opposed to magnetic coupling, for achieving your goal. Simply put, I don't expect a fruit fly to be very easy to magnetically couple to. -- Also, you would have to use an "air-cored inductor" of you plan to induce any non-negligible flux to the fruit flies, asn inductor with any other core material will guide the flux *away* from your fruit flies, instead of through them. – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 18:35
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    Fruit flies have cardiac function? – Trevor_G Apr 13 '17 at 18:36
  • Transformer coupling. If you regard your fly as a single turn, then the voltage you can induce around the perimeter of its body will be given by the rate of change of flux you can persuade to happen to the flux you can get to pass through its cross sectional area. The area is pretty small, so you'll need a lot of fast changing flux. This will require very high voltages in whatever drives your solenoid. You could try a small coil, and a spark-gap switched kV capacitor, Tesla coil stylee. Very easy to do, spark gaps are fast and robust, no dying semiconductors to worry about. – Neil_UK Apr 13 '17 at 18:40
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    @Trevor Technically, *yes*, they have a [dorsal vessel](https://genent.cals.ncsu.edu/bug-bytes/circulatory-system/) that functions similarly to, and is often called, a heart. – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 18:40
  • I agree. I have been trying to imagine how the eddy current would generated. I think I would either need to rely on the flies capacitance, or put the fly in a non uniform field so that the induced emf varied across the fly. – user146252 Apr 13 '17 at 18:40
  • Yup I just did my research @RobhercKV5ROB, interesting. Not sure how you could do this effectively "without actually cooking it". Though a single high frequency "EMP" might work. – Trevor_G Apr 13 '17 at 18:44
  • In a way I guess your RF suggestion is what I am following but instead of using a wave train I am using a single pulse expecting that the higher frequency harmonics will generate enough current in the geometry of The Fly – user146252 Apr 13 '17 at 18:45
  • @user146252 Thinking about it, as your flies can be easily contained within a faraday cage, you wouldn't have to worry about the legal problems of using a spark-gap transmitter as all generated EMI could be contained within the "kill box" ... I think an automotive spark plug would probably function very well for a tuned gap for that purpose, too...makes your job FAR easier than mine ;) – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 18:47
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    Just show them the bill for all this research.. that should do it... – Trevor_G Apr 13 '17 at 18:47
  • Ok let me see if I have this right. Make a single or maybe a double coil of some thick high conductance wire. Put it in a parallel circuit circuit with a spark gap, Automotive coil, and a power source like a car battery. Place the fly in a non-conductive tube at the approximate center of the single Loop. Charge up the coil comma with the battery. Disconnect the coil from the power let the field collapse and create a spark across the spark gap to induce a magnetic pulse that will turn the fly into the secondary coil of a transformer. Is that roughly correct , sorry a diagram would help here – user146252 Apr 13 '17 at 18:54
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    I believe I should call SPCFF. Edit your question and add your diagram. – StainlessSteelRat Apr 13 '17 at 22:40
  • @StainlessSteelRat SPCFF? Sorry, that one's new even to me ;) – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 13 '17 at 22:56
  • This is the sort of question that just makes me amazed at things people are researching. – Connor Wolf Apr 13 '17 at 23:09
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    This won't work. Neither RF or magnetic induction will deliver the *physiological effect* consistent with transthoracic electrical stimulation. With enough power you can kill the organism doing whatever you want, but it won't be because of contractile cardiac arrest. – DrFriedParts Apr 14 '17 at 00:06
  • @DrFriedParts can you please expound on why you believe that RF induced electrical charges won't cause death by contractile cardiac arrest? It seems that you're basing this on at least *some* degree of real-world (if not professional) experience/knowledge, so I'm wondering if there's something I don't know yet, which you could point me on my way towards learning. – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 14 '17 at 00:10
  • Let me add here. There is no doubt that a pulsed magnetic field can cause an electrochemical discharge deep in living tissue. Inhumans for decades now a medical technology called transcranial magnetic brain stimulation has been used for experimental research and treatment-resistant depression. So there's no doubt that a fluctuating magnetic field can stimulate muscle or nerve cells to depolarize period The main issue here is coming up with a cheap system that's workable for the size and geometry of a fruit fly. It can be done in a biological system the issue is just fruit flies and cost – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 00:18
  • Fyi, the current shock we use with about a 50% survival depending on treatment group is square wave pulse, 15 ms duration, 60 mv. – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 00:33
  • @StainlessSteelRat what is spcff? – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 00:35
  • *S*ociety for the *P*revention of *C*ruelty to *F*ruit *F*lies ... – brhans Apr 14 '17 at 00:47
  • @brhans lol, taint no such thing. Small invertebrates literally have no rights in our society, and frankly its very doubtful that they can suffer in the same sense that mammals or birds can, much less the self aware mammals. – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 01:09
  • ... says the guy who wants to build a teeny tiny non-contact electric chair ... ;) – brhans Apr 14 '17 at 02:08
  • Do you have an assistant named Igor? :) –  Apr 14 '17 at 15:41
  • People do this all the time, its called a microwave. You can't build an open ended microwave, its against FCC rules – Voltage Spike Apr 14 '17 at 16:31
  • This has been studied (DOI 10.1002/mus.880171007). When you stimulate with magnetic fields you are depolarizing terminal motor nerve branches. The electric shocks can depolarize the muscle tissue itself. You can't induce cardiac arrest/death in the same way magnetically due to the nerves' defenses (relaxation time). Fruit Fly physiology is different, of course, and perhaps you could find a frequency that results in fibrillation. My point was just that the _mechanism_ will be different and therefore a comparison of results before/after the change in methodology will be impacted. – DrFriedParts Apr 15 '17 at 21:31
  • @DrFriedParts thank you very much for the reference I will check it out. We are using already a very crude whole body shock for logistical reasons we just can't take the time two physically isolate the Flies heart and apply electrical stimulation directly to it. This is still good enough for our purposes comma because we can see under a microscope that we have sent the Flies heart into fibrillation comma and we are looking at drugs that can correct this and lead to recovery from fibrillation. It doesn't actually matter a whole lot whether the fibrillation starts in nerve or muscle – user146252 Apr 15 '17 at 21:38
  • Well awesome! Good luck and please keep us all updated as you find/try stuff by appending to your question. I think you've found a nice community (myself included) who are very fascinated and interested in what you discover. Cheers! – DrFriedParts Apr 16 '17 at 01:53
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    @DrFriedParts IDK, I'm mainly just interested in the "new, high-tech bug zapper" angle here ;) – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 16 '17 at 04:43

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Electrocardiac functions are pure chemical potential activity with no magnetic field.This is because the material is mainly an insulator which descibes all dielectrics, with some dielectric constant, effective series resistance, (ESR), dielectric constant time that of and thus requires a certain Energy level to activate without damage.

The ESR is responsible for all the heat in capacitors as well as skin burns from the ESR between the electrodes and the cardiac function.

So the objective must be to minimize the ESR which takes perhaps 1000 times (guesstimate) the energy on the chest of a human compared directly on the heart muscle in surgery. Thus attenuation is unavoidable in humans even with large paddles and high k dielectric grease. A similar problem will exist for you on insects and made much harder by the tiny surface area.

Immersion in the dielectric would help greatly but possibly drown the insect. The surge is a high amplitude ,very fast decay due to the low ESR of the interfacial ionization and ESR*Ceq. for the equiv capacitance of the discharge unit and target combined in parallel.

The desired solution is to use properly sized storage capacitance and voltage including cables at 50pf/m typ for twisted pair but use a higher voltage that will exceed the breakdown voltage (BDV) of the carapace.

The energy in any capacitance including the 300pF human finger model is E=1/2CV^2 in Joules , Farads and Volts. Thus a finger at 10kV from a nylon carpet with neoprene shoes will arc 10mm from a thin wire with 300pF or so is E=1/2 300e-12* 1e4^2= 15 mJ

You might only need 1kV with 1mJ to exceed BDV, trigger a cardiac function or failure, and not make fried protein.

Microwave pulses are not the same as a capacitance discharge, as the storage capacitance tends to be too high in order to get sufficient high BDV. Although 1kW microwave oven can generate 10kV it is too much energy.

I suspect the insect BDV is perhaps 1 to 10 kV/mm (guesstimate) like damp wood (not dry) but not mica or kapton which has a much higher kV/mm. I believe the pH level will determine most likely, the BDV/mm carapace material properties as this promotes partial discharge, an early precursor of of BDV.

So get a friction charge generator and make some small film cap or mica range of small caps xxx pF to charge upto 1kV then test on damp wood of same size as fly body. If arc works ~1mm then observé response and adjust C or V to fine tune the forces of a toothpick and electrode needle heads to apply to side to see if it tries to turn with the impulse current in 1 us. Current sense R's may be used in series with 10:1 probe across 1kV rated R with 0.1 ohm but probe ground and tip must be removed and wired directly to probe tip and barrel. Otherwise it will ring badly.

Now that's what I would do. The charge process could be done safely with some tech advisor.

Otherwise get a non ESD proof Nylon carpet and Neoprene shoes and do it the old fashioned way. hahaha. Don't forget the needle heads and suitable grease.

Tony Stewart EE75
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  • If I'm reading correctly, this answer describes a more efficient way of killing the fruit flies individually, the way the OP stated they're trying to avoid (having to apply electric shocks to each insect individually). According to the Question post, they've already been accomplishing this part successfully, but are trying for a more Adalf Hitler-esque approach of wiping out large quantities of them in "group showers," while still using the electrically-induced cardiac arrest killing mechanism. – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 14 '17 at 00:07
  • you aren't reading correctly. The energy has nothing to do with voltage alone which is necessary to pass thru the carapace. The energy can be controlled by precise control of the pF storage cap and thus 1/2CV^2 and adjusted to V just above threshold for BDV while current may limited with a Series R. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 00:15
  • Roughly correct. We would still probably be shocking the individually, but it would be nice to not have to knock them out with anesthetic, mount them and attack probes individually. If we could just take them. Put them in a small polyethylene tube. Put the tube in a chamber, flip a switch, and then count survivors and monitor recovery time the would be 3 times as fast. – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 00:23
  • Also it would not surprise me if we are physically hurting them in the mounting process and giving them burns on their high resisted carapaces when we run current through them. These are confounds. We are not look at thermal injury resistance, insulation properties, infection to damaged exoskeleton or physical toughness to handling. – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 00:26
  • If you had a 1M Ohm series R connected to a 100pF cap charged to 10kV , it would be an invisble arc then limit the current to 10uA. How does this damage the subject? Then adjust C,V,R with suitable electrode area and grease to reduce mA/mm2 to make it ideal . Most of the energy thru an excessive large R would be dumped in the R and not the carapace. Now Get'er'dun.! – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 00:28
  • By the way the open heart only needs about 1mA as I recall while external,paddles >1A – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 00:34
  • BTW magnetic induction is a no go. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 00:39
  • @user146252 Aha, it would seem that a slight edit to the original Question post is in order. I was under the impression that the fruit flies were being given electrically-induced heart attacks in order to euthanize them pre-dissection to study something else that you were experimenting on. If the objective is an LD50 study on electrical charge tolerance in fruit flies, then that's a very different criteria for the experiment (and would affect suggestions you'll receive, I'm betting). – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 14 '17 at 02:33
  • LD50 applies to animals and I doubt if Insects so low on the food chain would apply to this metric. I believe to **study cardiac function** means to stop then start it just as in human open heart surgery without damage. ie. excitation energy V,I,C,W, W/mm2,E[uJ] This can easily be regulated as I outlined. Just as pulsing a semiconductor with Ipk/Idc_max can be regulated with duty cycle. Except here t=ESR*C and E=1/2CV² [Joules] or uJ here – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 14:23
  • @TonyStewart.EEsince'75 why won't magnetic induction work? – user146252 Apr 14 '17 at 15:03
  • Every cell in a fruit fly (except possibly the exoskeleton) or human contains conductive fluid, and is bathed in conductive fluid. As you know, there is no such thing as current without implications for magnetic field. Search for magnetoencephalography, for example. – Scott Seidman Apr 14 '17 at 15:11
  • ... and transcranial magnetic stimulation, in fact. – Scott Seidman Apr 14 '17 at 15:12
  • sure if you have a lab and high power Rf amp with resonant magnetic field. Try a fly in a microwave oven and watch it go poof. This dielectric absorption and heat thruout the entire body of a fruitfly is not the way to go. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 15:34
  • It is not magnetic induction as inferred by the question with eddy currents. There are no magnetic or conductive materials, only insulator dielectrics with electro,potential pulses. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 15:40
  • it is by observing nature then simulating its stimulus, that we learn. charge transfer can regulated just like a pacemaker if this is how it works, not by large EMI exposure or high current density. this is the better way. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 20:34
  • you may have to surgically implant 64AWG wires using cyanoacrylate – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 20:37
  • or put them inside the nuclear material in a smoke detector for long period and get them to die of heart failure, but how will you know what else happens to enzymes – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 20:51
  • or paint iron oxide laden cyanoacrylate on the thorax?? and simulate-microgravity with a magnetic field that forces them away from an annual ring to the centre for five weeks where they can eat and mate in near zero gravity or a vertical laminar flow tunnel with velocity to offset gravity, then study the heart failure effects of micro-g which also affects humans. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 20:58
  • or use gas such as CO2 and dry ice to cause asphyxiation and death by cold without burns if careful. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 14 '17 at 21:06
  • humans have been revived in the winter exposure from the dead up to 30 minutes later, my brother-law once did it in intensive care in winnipeg to a young boy. – Tony Stewart EE75 Apr 15 '17 at 01:37
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I'd envision something like this for the "RF generator":

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

I made it with a voltage-controlled-switch in place of the spark-gap, so it would be simulable in CircuitLab for you. If you open the circuit, click [Simulation], then [Time-Domain]. Set the Start Time to 113.2n, End Time to 113.7n and Time Step to 3p, it will show you some estimation of the output waveform...lot's of unevenly spaced spikes (giving rise to tons of harmonics), followed by a damped sine wave of around 8GHz.

If you attach a feed from the illustrated antenna to a waveguide feedpoint, then any fruit flies (or likely any small insects) placed inside any portion of the qaveguide should be pretty easy to dose with a lethal amount of RF exposure, IMHO!

NOTES:

  • The 5MHz clock signal was chosen rather arbitrarily, other frequencies could be used, you'd just need to adjust the windings on the flyback transformer appropriately.
  • D3 and R1 are both for protection of the clock source (was simulating some rather unfriendly feedback there without them).
  • D1 and D2 turn the transformer into a "flyback" type, which seemed the most appropriate method for this kind of voltage step-up to me for this circuit.
Robherc KV5ROB
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  • Please comment if you feel an answer deserves a downvote. There's nothing wrong with downvoting if you disagree with an answer, but it's only constructive if you comment to give a *reason why* you think it's a bad answer (well, at least for answers that aren't obviously in violation of site policies). ... Otherwise, I quess we'll just have to assume the downvoter was an avid SPCFF member ;) – Robherc KV5ROB Apr 16 '17 at 00:47
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I doubt that you can directly create a 'heart attack' in that structure for a couple of reasons:

  1. The structure is probably too small to sustain an arrhythmia, assuming the cells are vaguely like mammalian cardiac muscle. Ventricular fibrillation depends on the heart muscle recirculating the depolarization wave. That structure is so small it is unlikely to be able to create a re-entrant wave.
  2. Tissue responds to current density. That is what causes muscle depolarization as well as tissue heating. It would be very difficult to get a high gradient in the cardiac muscle to cause depolarization without getting a high gradient everywhere and cooking the fly. That is, it will be tough to get a large difference in gradients to preserve the fly and affect the heart.

Do you know what the specific mechanism of 'heart attack' is for the current process? It would be very helpful to know if you are creating an arrhythmia or cauterizing the muscles.

That said, you might have success applying an micro-electrode very near the cells responsible for initiating contraction, if that's what fruit flies have. The return electrode needs to have a high surface area so the current density decrease rapidly with distance from the small electrode. A conductive liquid might be a good choice. In that sort of setup you could restrict the zone that is cauterized.

In a human heart the sinoatrial node is a small clump of cells that initiates every heart beat. If the fruit fly has a similar structure then a current applied very near it to cauterize those cells might stop the heart action without too much damage to other tissues. (Mammals actually have a hierarchy of pacemaker cells that will progressively takeover if the cells 'up the chain' fail. I would guess that fruit flies do not have that sort of sophistication.)

In any event, you should plan on quite a few cooked flies while you are working out the details. Good luck!

wilk
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  • We already do it with electrical current directly apply heady to tail. It causes fibrilation that lasts for up to minutes. that we can detect Magnetic induction has already been used in human and mammal brain, muscle, nerve and cardiac stimulation. – user146252 Apr 20 '17 at 20:16